Big Brother 5: A Weekly Big Brother Season Retrospective

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[00:01:05] Hey, I am here with Mary. How you doing, Mary? Oh my goodness. I forgot about Do Not Assume. I was like, what is, what does Project DNA stand for again? Do not assume! Project Do Not Assume. Yeah, it's actually not Mary joining you today. This is Mary's twin sister, Ari,

[00:01:29] who's here to talk about Big Brother 5. Wow. You know, the evolution just keeps on coming. It took them like five or six seasons to really get the format completely down. And so I feel like by Big Brother 5, we're like starting to get a little bit more into the, into the strategy of the game. The game is becoming fully formed. It's hit that third Pokemon evolution. It's kind of where we're at.

[00:01:57] Yeah, I, I think I, I really enjoy the idea of the subtitle. Uh, again, the subtitle, um, not very commonly used in Big Brother history. Uh, we, we got the X Factor in Big Brother 4. We got Project DNA here. Uh, Summer of Secrets is coming soon. Then All Stars. Then Summer of Stein.

[00:02:21] Then Summer of Sieve. And Summer of Stein. And then, uh, Till Death Do Us Part or something. It was the, I think the final one for Big Brother 9. Have they not done any since then? Wow. Uh, I mean, Big Brother 10 is often quoted as like a back to basics. And then Big Brother 11. Because the twist just didn't matter? Yeah, right. But I don't think that was an official title. And then Big Brother 11,

[00:02:46] I think they touted as like clicks. But again, I don't think it was like an actual title, uh, subtitle. They had themes, but those weren't themes, themed twists. Well, did the, um, BB 19 with the, like the tree of temptation and of temptation or whatever. Was that, was that not like, wasn't it like Summer of Temptation? I don't know. I might've made that up. I think they, I think they still have some taglines, but I don't think they were like official,

[00:03:14] like you wouldn't see them on the DVD cover, you know, like, uh, kind of thing. Speaking of, Oh yeah. We have the DVD cover for Big Brother 4. Would you like to, to, to guess who are the top three? Who's on the Big Brother 4? And in what order? Well, it depends if they went with who I voted for. Um, all right. So I, I'm putting June at number one, uh, Alison at number two and how, who did I vote

[00:03:43] for? See, I, you know what I said, is it who I voted for? But now I don't even remember who I voted for. Did I vote for Erica? I don't think so. Maybe, maybe G I have no idea. It was the third one. Whether you voted for her or not. It's June, Alison and Erica. Nice. In that order. Um,

[00:04:09] first all, all women poster. Um, in fact, I think probably first all one gender poster. Uh, I'm curious to see if there are any other seasons that would have all women on the poster. Yeah. Um, and two of these people we've talked to. That is true. Um, so there you go. Big Brother 4. What a season. Cool. Yeah. I, I loved Big Brother 4. I think I had mentioned this back when we did the

[00:04:38] documentary. I, um, up for a really long time and I had seen the season and I still thought, oh, if I play Big Brother, I want to play like Alison, which did not age well. I mean, it wasn't great at the time even to think that. And by the time, I mean like 2018 when I watched this, um, but I remember watching it being like, yeah, she played the game. She played all the people. Not that I could replicate that. Like, I don't know why I was thinking that I'd be able to,

[00:05:04] but I just thought that was such a great entertaining season. I mean, it was, it certainly was. Uh, but we're here to talk about Big Brother 5. Uh, Big Brother 5. Um, a, uh, again, the subtitle, do not assume, which I find to be interesting because like the message there is like, do not assume that the person you're talking to isn't secretly a twin

[00:05:32] that is hiding it from you and is pretending to be their twin. Or do not assume that the person you're talking to is not secretly your long lost sibling. Um, because quite frankly, if you assumed you made an ass out of yourself, uh, and not me because, uh, what a fool you are for thinking that you

[00:05:54] weren't related to that person. Uh, like the secret sibling trope is so big in scripted TV. And then to have that in reality TV, I mean, I don't know if outside of like some random TLC episode of, you know, something, I don't know if this has ever happened seemingly as organically as it did here where the people legitimately did not know like, ah, it's just wild.

[00:06:22] Well, I mean, it, I think it's sort of like the most intentionally Jerry Springer-ish that the show has ever been. Right. Because it was very much like, uh, like, oh, and the DNA tests are in and guess what cowboy? Uh, like I think you could certainly find this kind of thing. And just to set the stage in case you are not aware, uh, two of the cast members from this season, uh, cowboy and

[00:06:50] Nokomis were related brother and sister, uh, this guy and, uh, her, if you're watching the video, um, and, uh, they did not know it. Uh, cowboy never knew his father, uh, as they found his father and then they got his father's daughter Nokomis to come on the season. Neither of them knew the other one existed at all. Um, and they found that out on the show. You could find that kind of storyline

[00:07:20] in like other reality shows, like, right. Like, um, when I, when I was, uh, you know, fresh out of school and, you know, interning at a, at a, a production house, we worked on like a show that was similar to this, where it was like, uh, you'd, you'd find like, uh, random people who were like, oh, the, you're, guess what? You're related to this person. Here's the DNA test. The DNA tests were big back in the early two thousands. Um, but, but what was interesting about big brother doing it

[00:07:49] is that they were playing a game together in a house. Um, and there wasn't like camera people up in their face, going up to their house, showing the DNA test, right. They had to sort of figure it out on their own and then be like, live in a house where you'd watch them on live feeds, not an edited sort of reaction and then play this game together. And by the time they found out it was already tense

[00:08:18] because Cowboys people were kind of targeting Nokomis. Um, and so it was a very, very like unique, I think, situation, something that I think we have never really seen before or certainly since or certainly before or since. Yeah. And, and that's what I was thinking. Like you have shows like the catfish TV show and others where they do these similar type of investigative

[00:08:45] camera in your face, gotcha. Ooh, did you know all along it was actually yada yada kind of thing. But the fact that now when we see seasons of big brother, where there are people cast who know each other, know each other, um, they know each other, uh, which is going to become more and more

[00:09:08] common when you're primarily casting, um, either fans of the show who are going to find other people, uh, even if they just have an awareness of them or, um, internet slash, you know, like whatever, social media influencer type people that might run in similar circles. I feel like it's going to be more common that you're going to have that type of thing happen where, Oh, I might've known this

[00:09:34] person or heard of this person or whatever. Um, that's a little different when you have these two people who the scenario was clearly instigated, but the way that they found out and then had to live with it was just so unique from any other type of show. And like you said, the fact that they're playing a game. And so that's going to factor into the strategy. Fascinating. And I don't remember,

[00:09:58] I'm trying to think back at the time in the moment when they found out, do you remember if any of the other players thought anything or said anything like, Oh, this is unfair. Of course they're going to work together now, or we need to worry about them now. I don't remember that being particularly prevalent. Well, I mean, you have this moment where cowboy finds out because she says her last name

[00:10:26] and, uh, and talks about her dad. I think his, he like lost a toe or something, um, in the, in a war. And it was like a vague, very specific details on top of the fact that the last name is the same. He figures it out. Uh, keeps asking her questions like, uh, have you, if you could have, would you want, uh, uh, an older brother or, uh, she said, I probably want an older brother. Like,

[00:10:51] Oh, um, the older brother. And, but instead of talking to her about it, he goes to his bros in the four horsemen, uh, drew Scott and Jace, um, and tells them for like, Hey, uh, I've, I think I've got a sister. I think the Comis is my sister. Just such a random thing to come up to these people

[00:11:16] and say, and they did not believe him. They thought he was lying. They were like, dude, they had him swear on the Bible that he was not lying to them. Marvin comes over with a Bible. Um, and, uh, he's like, yeah, I don't know what to do. And they're like, Nicole, miss get over here. Listen to what cowboys say. And he's like, so I think you're my sister. She's just like, how, like, how am I supposed to respond to this? Are they, are they pulling my leg?

[00:11:45] Um, and, uh, and, and all complicated by the fact that Jace is the HOH who has nominated Nokomis. And one of his first reactions, once he starts to believe like, okay, if she's really your sister, you know, you still have to vote her out. Right. And cowboys like, yeah, yeah, of course I know. I get it. Yeah, for sure. Oh my gosh. I wonder if there was anything to hear, take, listen to this theory. 1998, there was a remake of a movie very popular called the parent trap.

[00:12:14] And it had two tropes in it, twins and siblings discovering that they were siblings. Maybe someone in production was watching that and be like, you know what, could we do this? Could we trap these contestant trap? Could we do that? I feel like that'd be great. I'm still amazed. Yeah. It'd be very like a fitting because I think big brother is normally, uh, about, you know, five years behind, uh, cultural trends. Well, yeah, clearly based on when they did

[00:12:44] the like emoji house or whatever, it was like in 2022. Um, and they finally did the multiverse. Uh, yeah, yeah, exactly. Um, but yeah, I mean, what do you think compared to the, the ones we've seen so far, this cast as a whole, like when you watched it in the real time, do you remember feeling like, oh yeah, I'm into this. I, I was as a kid and I talked about this a little bit. Like I was

[00:13:12] big brother five was one of the more, I mean, the thing you have to remember is that like when you're a kid every year feels like a lifetime. So like by the time I'm watching big brother five, it feels like I've never remembered a time that big brother like is super engaged because I wasn't the biggest fan of big brother four. Um, and so like I, I could barely even remember what happened

[00:13:37] on big brother three. I was, you know, not like 10 years old, uh, when I watched that and I was 12. Now, you know, I was an entirely new person. Um, and so, uh, big brother five was a season that felt like one of the more engaging seasons that I'd, that I'd, uh, watched before primarily because I think of these twists, like the, the twists got me like they, for me, they worked as a child at least.

[00:14:06] Um, and I was like super invest invested in like, oh, the, the brother and the sister. Oh my God. Oh, she wanted her brother. Uh, and the twins and Jace is, is, you know, going around being a wild man. And like, I thought that was so funny. Um, and then, you know, when, uh, when Diane starts, you know, really starting to, to dominate the season, it was like, oh, look at Diane. Um, but,

[00:14:34] uh, so I, I really liked the season as a kid. Now it's only a year away from big brother six, which was by far the most engaged I'd ever been. Um, but, uh, but big brother five definitely was for, for a child, a very fun season to watch. Yeah. I, I think just based on, cause I, I, um,

[00:14:58] if the listeners don't know, I discovered a big brother in like 2017 or something like that. Like I sort of knew it existed. You were also a child. Back when I was a wee child. Um, uh, yeah, I had listened to, uh, I don't know if you were on it. I know Rob did a podcast. It was why survivor fans should give big brother 19 a try. And that was in

[00:15:23] June of 2017. And I listened to that and I was like, all right, sure. I'll give, I'll give big brother 19 a try. And it's just, it's always so wild to think how so many people get into big brother on like horrible seasons. Like how did they not lose me on big brother 19? Um, but then after that, uh, you, you did the, uh, but first a big brother to blockumentary, um, in, uh, I think that was also

[00:15:50] in 2017, maybe when you did that one or 2018, it was around then, but I listened to that and I was like, great, I'm getting all in on this, just going to marathon three of them. And so I watched like 17 seasons of big brother in six months. And when I did that, this season did stand out to me along with like the first 10 seasons of just being, it's like that when you go back and watch old

[00:16:16] survivor seasons and it's just so much more concentrated on the people and the relationships and the game is happening, but it's not, it's not the players playing against the twists and the various elements of the game and the corniness. It's the players actually legitimately playing against each other. And it was so much more of that, like cabin fever feel of, oh my gosh, we're in here forever. And I'm trying to think this season, I think was like 80 something days for big

[00:16:42] brother five before we got to the a hundred day. Yeah. This 82, uh, yeah. 82, 82 is like the number of days that a lot of these early seasons are. So still massively long. And so there's just so much downtime of them together. And I just remember like so many moments from this season standing out, obviously all the twists, the, the drew and died Anne of it all, the Jason Holly. Uh, and then of

[00:17:07] course probably going to get into it, but the, the strategy evolution that happened in this game, because I think at this point, so in, in season four, they do the, uh, golden power veto, but is, is this the season where you start ran or you start picking the people for the veto? It's not everyone playing it. Right. Right. So in the previous season and big brother four, it was still, everybody was competing, but you could use the veto on yourself. Um, and, but the,

[00:17:35] the problem with that is that the veto was very rarely used because the chances of somebody winning the veto who needed it were so low. So the solution is to make the group smaller, uh, six people, uh, only six people compete. Um, and how do you pick those people? Well, Oh, here we go. Social strategy, right? Have the two nominees pick a person. And then the HOH picks a person that is like a representative. And that also increases the chances of the veto being used because the two

[00:18:05] nominees are picking somebody who they assumedly think will use the veto on them. So now you have a four out of six chance of the veto being won by somebody who will use it. You know, being used is always better for TV. So, uh, so theoretically, this is a great idea. Um, until, uh, until they break it and it, and it breaks so fast, which is so funny instantly. So here's the thing. Obviously the six

[00:18:34] finger plan, uh, comes into play. So the veto, uh, six players all chosen by, by, uh, by the people, by the two nominees and the HOH instantly you had a player like Mike Lubinsky, the Don, uh, in his first and only week in the house talks about the, the ways that this could be gamed theoretically.

[00:18:59] Um, like, Hey, if you can choose, then you can, uh, like who competes then, you know, and you choose who is doing the choosing, like then theoretically you could, you could game this whole thing. Talks about it, obviously never manages to implement it. Um, Marvin, uh, who is going to be much, much further down on this, uh, boot order list. Um, uh, Marvin is going to talk about this, uh, as,

[00:19:25] as a concept as well, but it isn't until of course, uh, Nikomis is able to actually implement this strategy by nominating two pawns, um, in Diane and Marvin, uh, who will not choose, uh, uh, Jace to compete because Jace is the one that he is. He won the previous veto the week before when Diane was HOH. Uh, and they were like, this guy's too good at comp to too good at competitions

[00:19:55] to get a vetoes need to make sure he can't compete. So, uh, we're going to choose two people that will not choose, uh, Jace to compete and then guarantee that, uh, that then he will not win. We can nominate him and then we can vote him out due to our, uh, numbers advantage, uh, with the, with two leftover nominees. It's a great plan and it works flawlessly. Uh, and they have to fix this

[00:20:25] eventually. Um, and, and it takes them a little while to figure out how to fix it, but, uh, but yes, a little, little fun, little moment of game being broken. Yeah. And I have a friend who their only reference for big brother is that anytime I bring it up, they just go, ah, yes. Like Nokomis. That's the only thing they remember. It's like the people, when you mentioned survivor and they're like, oh yes, Rupert, right? You're like, yep. Yep.

[00:20:53] Rupert. So memorable, even from back here in 2004, man, if only they could have lined up those years with those season numbers. All right. Uh, let's talk a little bit about the cast as we talk through the season. Um, because, uh, the aforementioned Mike Lubinsky, the Don, um, he's, he's basically

[00:21:17] like, we talked about Jack last week. Uh, he is the Jack for sure. He's very, such a dad. Uh, you know, he wants to play this game. Like he's a mafia boss. Like he's playing chess. Um, and, uh, and he's thinking about strategies like, uh, like, you know, the, the concept of the six finger plan. Um, and he's also like not afraid, you know, he's going to go after the big dogs if that's what's,

[00:21:46] if that's what's necessary. Um, and that of course gets him into some trouble here. Um, ultimately, I, I don't think Mike Lubinsky is like the worst player in the world, but, uh, just kind of gets unlucky with the, uh, with the, with the way things laid out that first week. Um, it was never really going to fit into this cast either. Uh, he kind of stood out. Yeah. And this is the problem

[00:22:11] with the like token person of a different age compared to everyone else who, I mean, is everyone else in the cast basically in their twenties or maybe early thirties? I feel like it's a very young young cast for sure. Um, let's see. Uh, yeah. So at the time, uh, there are four people in their thirties

[00:22:36] one, uh, and, and by thirties, I mean, there are three people who are 30. Then there's Marvin at 36, Mike Lubinsky at 41. Everyone else is in their twenties. And a lot of them are like low twenties, 22, 23, 22, 21, uh, 24, 25. Very young cast. Yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah. It's, it's young. It sort of

[00:23:04] almost reminds me of like, well, I was going to say, uh, survivor of the Amazon in terms of that range, but that was also near the same time. So yeah. Yeah. Well, uh, this was Mike Lubinsky goes out on Jason's HOH. Um, and Jason establishes himself as like a competition guy, right? Uh,

[00:23:31] right away wins the first HOH Scott wins that veto. They form the four horsemen, which is like the first real iteration of like the bro Alliance. Um, and so they are, they've, they control that entire week. Mike is the, Mike is the one that's standing up to them. They get Mike out of the house. Uh, Marvin wins the next HOH. He is loosely attached to this bro Alliance, not an official four horsemen,

[00:23:56] but, uh, but, but, uh, associated with them has there has his own sort of alliance with them. Um, he wins that next HOH and Jace wins that following veto as well. So Jace having HOH and then the following veto. This is what starts to make him feel like he's really difficult to take out. This is not super common in these days that somebody wins this many competitions, uh, in sequence. So, uh, it was very scary. And the person that, uh, Marvin takes out is going to be Lori. Um,

[00:24:25] Lori, I think probably the most forgotten member of this cast. Yeah. When her picture came up before, um, not going to lie. I was like, hold on. Who is that? Is that someone from a different season? Yeah. I mean, it's, it's the classic thing of, you remember the first evicted person more than the second, a lot of times. Yeah. Uh, yeah. And, and Lori also was, was like, uh, uh, just kind of,

[00:24:49] she had won what, like $10,000 or something. Um, I don't remember the exact number. Cause I can't remember when they do the hands on the car thing or is that a different one? Uh, so this was, she found like a specific ball, I think in the food competition. Um, and then she was offered $10,000 to put the whole house on PB and J and totally, basically like negate the entire competition, uh,

[00:25:19] and like everything that they'd won. And in return, she'd get $10,000. So, uh, you know, ultimately she gets 10 K, uh, and, and so that's not bad. Uh, but it definitely did not help her case with Marvin. Um, um, he was kind of initially looking at Holly, uh, but Jace winning that veto is going to take Holly off the block. And, uh, that, uh, replaced Holly with Karen who, um, you know, we have talked before about one of the more strategic sort of, uh,

[00:25:49] powerhouses of the season was Karen, even though she often gets forgotten as well. Uh, there was just no shot. She was going to be voted out here over Lori. So it really sentenced Lori to, uh, eviction. Karen, another person who I never understood why, yeah, she didn't get the acclaim that I felt like she deserved. Hmm. Um, so that's Lori next, the following week, uh, they finally do get Holly out and it's by Drew's hand. Um, it's, uh,

[00:26:17] what a complicated web these bros weaved because in classic, uh, in, in what would come to represent the future struggles and strifes of bro alliances, uh, what happens when one of those bros gets a girl and the other bros don't approve, uh, in this case, uh, Drew's going to fully evict the girl. Like, yeah, this is the, the first, but certainly not the last time that we see,

[00:26:46] or this probably isn't the first time this happens exactly, but it, it's, I'm trying to think if women do the opposite, not really, not really. Like, I think if there's women and then like one of them is like with a guy, if anything, they usually vote out the woman. Yeah. Like, Oh, her mind, she's not in it. She's not in the game, but of course they're not going to vote out Jace. So, um, yeah, no, just Holly, Holly, who weirdly, I don't think has a twin,

[00:27:15] but everyone thought she did because of, I don't know, because there were so many people in this cast who had twins. Yes. So, uh, Drew and Diane both had twins at home. Uh, and then of course, Adria and Natalie who we'll talk about were twins. Um, and, uh, Drew and Diane really bond over the fact that they both have twins, um, which is, is very, very relevant to the storyline of the season. Um, but yeah, for whatever reason, of course, uh, later when we get to the big reveal,

[00:27:44] it says, Oh, it's Holly. That's Holly. I told you it's Holly. Got a secret twin. And it's because of, I think people found her behavior to be erratic. Um, and in reality, like she was just kind of like, you know, a bit of a like ditzy Valley girl, right? Like that's kind of spacey, but, but like at this time we, I think we talked about this a little bit, um,

[00:28:09] in a previous week, but like people were very judgmental about this, like archetype in the, in this time period. Like they really just like looked down on these, these kinds of, uh, women particularly. Yeah. Which, I mean, you say it this time. Hasn't changed that much. It's probably fair, but I think the specific way that the archetype presents itself and is looked at

[00:28:37] has changed, but yeah, the, probably in, uh, uh, behavior or the, uh, the ways that people look down on women are similar. Just they look different now, I think. And this was also, you know, in the time where people like Paris Hilton and stuff were really popular. So it also kind of, it all bleeds together. Yeah. Um, so, uh, Drew is going to take out Holly. Nokomis wins this veto, saves herself. Um,

[00:29:07] and, uh, Adria goes up and this was a bit scary for production. I'm sure, uh, Adria up on the block against Holly. Ultimately Holly is going to leave, um, almost unanimously, uh, with just Jace voting out Adria. Um, and, uh, you know, that, that was it for Holly, uh, and, and, and the budding romance with Jace. Oh, well, I remember something about bathtub.

[00:29:37] I don't know. I think they were like taking a bubble bath. I don't know. That feels familiar. Yeah, I think so. Bubble baths were a big thing in the early days of the show. I feel there's a lot of between the hot tub, uh, shenanigans and some, some bubble baths, a lot of that stuff going on. Um, Diane then, then wins the, uh, the next HOH, uh, puts up Jason Scott. Jace wins the veto.

[00:30:06] This is again, like now the third week out of four that Jace has won a competition. Feels like he's winning almost everything he's playing in. Uh, he keeps himself safe. Marvin goes up on the block to replace him and out goes his buddy Scott, uh, uh, in his stead. Um, and, uh, Scott's really like my memory of Scott is, uh, just like, I think even as a kid, I thought of Scott as like, Oh, the jerk. He's just a jerk.

[00:30:36] Yeah. I think I don't really know this archetype. You see it sometimes. And I always wonder, I'm like, do they just have no understanding of how they come across? Or are they cool with that? Is that how they want to come across? I don't know. Yeah. It was Scott. Scott was an interesting one because like you, you already had Jace. Also, this is, this is always wild to me.

[00:31:05] Uh, the Scott is 24. Oh, Jace is 28. Isn't that wild? Look, all I'm going to say is oof. Oh, I mean, like I always got the sense that Scott was like the older brother and Jace was the younger brother, right? Like they had those energy mentality. And, and look,

[00:31:32] I say this as a person with a baby face who constantly has people think I'm about six years younger than I am. Just fine. You know what? Honestly, as the older I get, that's great. I'm happy with it. But when you go the other direction, um, yeah. Wow. I mean, I would never have guessed that that, that was how old Scott was, but here's what I will say. In other seasons of big brother, maybe like brother 21,

[00:31:59] there are some other people who have similar personalities who are younger and act, they act older. Maybe it's like a, he wanted to give, give the vibe of being like the authority figure amongst them or something. Because when you compare him to like Roddy or Hardy, or some of these other guys who are sort of in a similar build, they come across more scheming. Whereas he just kind of came across as a jerk. I mean,

[00:32:28] I think Scott is probably the most pure bro archetype that the show has cast to this point. Um, like you had maybe like Nathan and, uh, David and Justin the year before, but all of the, like Justin maybe is the most bro, but even then, like Justin is a fairly chill guy overall. Um, and then, yeah,

[00:32:56] like the year before that you have people like Roddy, maybe Eric, the firefighter, uh, in, in season three, not season six. Um, and, uh, and like, but, but again, like he's, he's not so overtly just like throw down, man, let's go. Uh, like you just haven't really seen that before. And, and quite frankly, you don't really see it, too much in big, for as much as we talk about bros and they certainly exist.

[00:33:25] And there's certainly like a huge presence on the show. Um, they, they don't usually go so heavy into the bro archetype. I think, you know, you can get to somebody like Brett in BB 20, uh, who was very broy, but, but even Brett, I think was a lot more strategically, uh, oriented than somebody like Scott, who certainly was strategy focused, but like in such a bro down, kind of way, uh, that he never really wanted to like escape that. Um,

[00:33:54] but you know, he, he just seems to flame out here. Never seems to really work. Certainly got into drama. Um, but, uh, yeah, not, not, you don't see too many Scots overall. Yeah, you really don't. It's, it's interesting. Um, but like other than, I mean, gosh, other than him just kind of being a bro, the impact wasn't actually as high on the season. I think, I mean,

[00:34:24] the problem is he's right there next to Jace and Jace was always more entertaining. Like, yes, Jace was just a bigger character. He was winning more competitions. He was more strategic, like just fully outshined Scott on television and in pretty much every area. Uh, and he also like, wasn't as mean, which was a, which was a plus. Um, but, uh, that was going to be it, uh, for, I actually,

[00:34:53] hold on before Jace leaves. Um, it's after Scott is, is evicted that, uh, Julie, tells them she has, she says, Hey house guests question for you. How many people have you been playing this game with? Uh, uh, I forget the number, like 12, 13. I don't know, but yeah, 13, 13. No,

[00:35:23] you're incorrect. You've been playing with 14 people. One of you has been switching out secretly with your twin. Uh, with their twin throughout the entire season. Um, and let's just quickly, uh, run to one of these people. Um, I guess it would maybe Adria. Cause they were playing as Adria. Yeah. I was going to say, who was the, the real person? who was the real person. Um,

[00:35:53] and there, this, when I talked about like, do not assume, right? Do not assume, uh, that the person you're talking to might not be secretly related to you. Do not assume that like, they're not secretly a different person that you don't even know. But this genuinely just like rocks their entire world. Like there, I don't understand what's happening to me right now. They're so confused. Diana's is given drew a look like,

[00:36:22] is it you? Because they're twins. Um, meanwhile, cow, cowboys. It's, it's Holly. It's Holly. Uh, it's a fantastic moment in television. It really is. Um, and so Adria reveals herself to be both Adria and Natalie. Uh, they've been switching out.

[00:36:50] It's probably the best casting twist the show has ever conceived of. Um, I think they loved it so much. They did again. They brought it back. Uh, it wasn't as fun the second time, but Hey, you know, what are you going to do? What are you going to do when, when Dave on's in the house? You know, you're not going to slip, you're not going to slip it past him. Um, but, uh, it's just, it's rare. It's very, very fun.

[00:37:16] And it certainly does like provoke a paranoia and future house guests of like, is this person secretly a twin? Uh, you know, stuff like that. Uh, just a very fun twist, very game related, not very, not doesn't feel as, exploitative as the cowboy Nokomis twist does. Um, and I think they just really, they really just like hit it, hit, hit, uh, out of the park with this one is just,

[00:37:44] it was just a great twist leading to a great moment. And then to make it even better, like Natalie and Adria played the game very conservatively up until the point where they revealed themselves. And after that, they were like, now we get to play as ourselves. And turns out themselves were like very power trippy and completely turned their alliance against them. Which is so wild because. Like it is night and day,

[00:38:14] how well they do when they're pretending and when they're hiding versus when they feel comfortable. And, um, the key here is don't feel comfortable because you were doing so much better. And it like, yes, you're going to have a target on your back when you all of a sudden reveal that you have two people, but they could have just, Oh yeah, we're just, we're calm. We're quiet. We're just going to be numbers for you. And then turn it on when there's like four or five people left. Not when there's 10 still, or however many there were at that point.

[00:38:45] Wild. They instantly turn on their alliance. I just don't, I don't even. I mean, truly the best argument for, best argument against be yourself in the house. The best argument against like, you can't spend the whole time pretending to be somebody else. Well, they spent a good chunk of time. And it was working for him. So who knows?

[00:39:07] But so they enter in the same week that Jace is going to be six finger planned out of the game. In, you know, and by the way, the, the week that Diane had won and took out Scott was also a fantastic endurance HOH competition. They were holding a button on their faces. Jace was making all kinds of noises. It was very, very entertaining.

[00:39:34] So he nearly won that competition and then went on to win that veto, which is again, why they were just so nervous about letting him play in anything. The fact that Comus had won that HOH was like, okay, we have a shot here. And so they go ahead and implement the six finger plan. Diane and Marvin, Diane and Marvin go on the block so that they will choose people who are not Jace. Uh, and Drew ultimately wins this veto and uses it on, uh, his, at this point,

[00:40:03] like, uh, pretty locked in showmancy kind of situation. Diane, uh, meaning Jace goes up on the block and Jace is going to be voted out over Marvin. Uh, no chance to save himself. The first of two back doors that he experiences in his big brother career. Yeah. Yeah. I'll never forget Jace going around with the, who wants to be an Alliance sign or whatever.

[00:40:33] Yeah. It's just good moments. I, I, uh, I liked Jace all in all. I mean, I think Jace is actually someone who I'm trying to think of like an equivalent in a different show or something, but he, he was so kind of like loud and polarizing in his first season. And then I'm sure you'll talk about it in a couple of weeks, but when he comes back for all stars, it's almost like, Oh shoot. There, there were so many other big characters at this point that Jace almost like,

[00:41:01] like falls into the background a little bit just in the face of so many other big characters. Yeah. I mean, personality wise, Jace is probably the closest the show comes to Dr. Will, um, in, in a long time and just the way that they conduct themselves and the way that they both understand that they're on a TV show. They are constantly trying to entertain. Um, you know, uh, I think that like ultimately one of the differences is that like Jace is just like at a hundred at all times,

[00:41:31] even in the game where Will is a lot more capable of being like, I'm going to throw this. I'm going to throw this. Um, and, and seem like not as much of a threat. Uh, but personality wise, they, they do actually line up a bit. Uh, and, you know, he certainly made for a very, very entertaining character. One of the stars of the season, perhaps somebody that appears on the cover of the poster. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, he's one of, uh,

[00:41:58] only he's one of three people that get asked back for all stars. So. Yeah. Does that mean he appears on the poster? I don't know. That's up to the audience to decide when they go to BB retrospect, uh, rob his website.com slash BB retrospective. And they fill out the survey. Yeah. All right. Are you, are you also filling out those surveys? Uh, I'm not myself now, but I am on the podcast discussing these people. So. Fair enough.

[00:42:29] Next out was will, uh, after Adria wins the following HOH, she turns on Alliance member will, uh, uh, uh, also winning the, the veto competition that week. Uh, really just coming out hard. Uh, it's, you know, she wins HOH veto. And then the following week wins the veto again. So like with Jace gone and Adria now,

[00:42:59] like fully competing, these were like fitness, uh, women. Like they, the, the two of them were both like heavily into fitness. So they were really like holding themselves back, uh, in, in, in any kind of physical route. I mean, not, you know, they, everyone knew that they were in fitness, but like they were not playing the game as hard as they could have been. Uh, and once they start, Adria just starts winning these competitions. Um, of course it's not going to help her in a couple of weeks, but, uh,

[00:43:27] but she decides to turn on her ally. Will, uh, putting up Marvin and will together. Um, bit of a wild call. Ultimately, strategically, it made no sense. No, made no sense. I mean, I think, let's see at this point in the game, we've got two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine people left. Um, too early to turn on the Alliance.

[00:43:58] Uh, and I guess, I guess the question here was like who to go against. Well, okay. Cowboy is still in there. So go against cowboy. I don't know how close Adria was to drew. I'm trying to remember. Um, they might've actually been tight. They had like, they had a, uh, is the really like, I think you have to credit Diane and drew, uh, because they are the people to target. Um, with Jace gone with Scott gone, you know, drew has cowboy now locked in.

[00:44:28] Uh, Diane is with drew. Diane is also still with, uh, like Nikomis and them for now. Like the two of them together are the most connected and powerful players in the game. Um, and, um, you know, the, the, uh, the fact that Adria decides to go after will. And, you know, like there was all the, also this stuff about like their behavior. They were being more like cocky and will didn't love that. Um,

[00:44:57] and so there were some personal tensions like, uh, popping up, but like it just, it, it just, uh, Adria and Natalie put themselves in a position where they, they just seem to have no, uh, real winning, winning outcome. And I mean, at this point I forgot they are also in the twin alliance with drew and Diane. So I get that. I get why they're not going to go after them. I still think there's no reason to not at least put cowboy on the block against one of will or Marvin.

[00:45:25] I think the problem is putting both of them up immediately makes them, uh, not look good in whichever of will or Marvin is going to stay. Also Karen, also Nokomis are all not with, uh, with Natalie and Adria here, as well as the fact that drew and Diane have other options. And so they don't like if, if, uh, you know, if stocks are fallen, not gonna, not gonna hold onto that share. Mm. Yep.

[00:45:56] will I think was like, I always really liked will. Um, when I watched the, when I, when I was a kid and I watched the season, uh, he's always somebody that like, uh, I feel drawn to when I watched the, the seasons. Uh, he, he just feels like a voice of reason. A lot of the time. I'm pretty sure it was him. When, when, uh, when Julie is talking about how there's a twin and, and cowboys yelling, it's Holly. Uh, will, I think is the one that's like, it's some, it's one of us.

[00:46:24] Is somebody still in the game is what she's saying. Like he just, he just sort of was like, felt a little more level headed, uh, in, in, in a, in a field of wild players. Um, but ultimately, uh, gets betrayed by his allies who really just like went a little wild here. Uh, and, uh, and that's going to be it for Will. Yeah. Oh, well, you know, he, he, uh, I'm trying to think. He reminds me of, um,

[00:46:55] like if, if he was, the problem is I feel like him and Jace, they did not look the same at all, but they were kind of going for that similar look. Messy kind of blonde hair. Yeah. Kind of thing. Um, okay. Jace just looks like a cartoon of Will. So, I don't know about that. When you flash back and forth between the two. Yeah. I, I do feel like justice for Will. Um, at least he got some good words against the twins on his way out.

[00:47:25] Hmm. Yeah. Uh, well, Nikomis wins another HOH after that. Uh, uh, and just straight up nominates both of the twins. Um, Adria and Natalie, but Adria wins that veto, which means Natalie is the one to be sent out. She survives just two weeks, uh, on her as, as her own person. Um, it, what a compelling storyline it was for Natalie.

[00:47:51] She talks a lot about like feeling like she doesn't have an identity because she's playing as her sister and doesn't get to be herself. Um, and then when she's finally able to introduce herself to the game, it's like, again, it's like maybe not the best, but like, it was so interesting watching somebody like, imagine you're playing this game, this social game. You're making bonds with people.

[00:48:17] You're pretending to be a different person the whole time. They don't know who you are or that you even exist. You're talking to somebody that doesn't know that you exist. I, I, I would not be able to, to play that for days. I was thinking the other day of like, Ooh, you know, people, uh, people who kind of have like Southern accents tend to do kind of well on big brother. And I was like, could I go on big brother and just do a fake Southern accent? And then I was like,

[00:48:47] could you do that for days though? It'd be really hard to slip out of it. And not that she was doing an accent, but she was playing another person. And I think that's why they were doing so well because they were just being quiet. And not saying much. And like the worst thing against them was like, Oh, I don't, I don't feel like I got to know them that well. Yeah. Oh, I mean, people have a hard time having a different job and lying about their job. Yeah. Uh,

[00:49:17] her sister follows her out the door. Uh, Marvin wins the HOH. Karen wins that veto. And they send out Adria over, uh, over cowboy. Um, which again, like, uh, like, I think the idea here was cowboy is not a threat, right? Uh, like there's no purpose in going after cowboy, but, uh, not really fully either seeing or understanding that cowboy was just such a valuable number for a really powerful player like drew. Um,

[00:49:47] and I think they also were underestimating drew's capability in the competitions. He's going to completely dominate the end game competitions, winning the next three out of four HOH, uh, HOH is basically every HOH after this one that he's eligible for. He wins. Um, and, uh, and then Diane also wins two of the next three, uh, vetoes. So, uh, and, and cowboy wins the other one, uh, and which they helped orchestrate. So they basically, after this,

[00:50:16] after this competition, after this week, drew and Diane with, with a little help for, with a little assist from cowboy do not lose a single competition. Um, and they are completely unstoppable. So this was their last chance to really take a shot and they don't. And also throughout the season, I'm pretty sure I'm looking at the list now of the number of times that they have.

[00:50:45] Vito picking. I think drew gets picked like almost every single time, either by the HOH or one of the nominees. Um, which I mean, we're, you know, we're talking about the season. We haven't actually mentioned drew all that much yet, but, uh, considering he's the winner, I just feel like he, he almost is sort of, it's sort of like if, if Jason was like even more in with the guys kind of than he was. Um,

[00:51:15] yeah, he, quieter than the other bros. Yeah. And he was retaining relationships with the other side while the bros were being these like firecrackers. Um, because it was like Jason, Jason Scott were doing their thing and he was attached to them, but he was the reasonable one. He was the quieter one. Um, and, and that gave him some ends. And then he eventually develops this relationship with Diane that really gets him in.

[00:51:43] And that's part of why he targets Holly because he's like, I'm going to appease the other side while also getting my boy, Jason's head straight. Right. Um, and so he's very much playing both sides from, from very early on. Um, and then continues to do that once Jace and Scott are gone, uh, you know, making this alliance with, with twins and then, uh, holding on to cowboy and then having Diane work some of the other women.

[00:52:12] Um, like the two of them play off of each other very well. Um, and, uh, and then ultimately just, again, you know, this is one of the only exam, only times this happens in the early era of the show, but, uh, just, just dominating the comps from, from then on in the end game. Yeah. Yeah. Um, which up until I'm trying to think, uh, do you know off the top of your head, how many comps drew wins?

[00:52:41] He has, uh, he has four HOHs, which, um, might've been a record at the time. It definitely was, um, the, like, I think that that record held until very recently when, um, he tied for that record. A lot of people tied with four HOHs until, uh, until Chelsea recently. Um, and then, uh, I think he only won like one veto. So, uh, but, but yeah, like five competitions at the time was like a huge amount for sure. Oh yeah. Yeah.

[00:53:11] Well, and especially coming off of, uh, season four where the competitions were so spread out. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so the twins go out and then Marvin follows them after drew when following HOH, but did I say Mart? It says Martin on the screen. Oh boy. Oh, poor Marvin. Um, we apologize. Um, yeah.

[00:53:41] And I liked Martin. Martin. Oh my gosh. I can't not say it now that it's in front of me. I like Marvin, um, as a character as, as well. Like, uh, uh, I feel like compared to like, I got to take this off the screen. It's really bothering me. I can't look at it. Back to this one. Um, why is everyone raising their fist except for the Don and, and Diane? They didn't get the memo in this picture. Diane's kind of doing like a, like with the,

[00:54:10] with the bag, you know? Yeah. But the, yeah. But listen, Mike Lubinsky is a little too cool for it. Oh yeah. Um, yeah. What did you think about Marvin? What a character. Uh, I really one of a kind you, you do not see anybody like Marvin. I think ever again, really, uh, like a little bit older. Um, but he's probably not even that old. He's 36. Oh my gosh. Only 36.

[00:54:39] I mean, he's, he's, uh, younger than Scott looks. Um, really just like such, such a funny guy. Uh, you know, things do get a bit weird with him and Diane. Um, but, uh, but like, just, just like a true wild card in the season. Um, where like,

[00:55:09] and just at any point he could do anything. You never really knew where his true loyalties lie. Uh, uh, were lying. Like he, again, like was thinking very like off the wall, strategically coming up with ideas like a potential six fingered plan. Um, and, and fully self-interested as well, like fully just willing to like stab anybody in the back that he needed to. Just a really fun character. I would say. Yeah. Yeah. I,

[00:55:37] I'm always surprised when I go back and look at this list of his placement, because while I really liked him, I did not realize that he got as far as he did. Like to me, this feels more like, let's see. One, two, three, four, five, six, six. So six. Yeah. In my mind, he goes out like closer to where Jace does for whatever reason. And I always go back. I'm like, Oh no, we get Marvin for a lot longer than that. Um, I just feel like there's so much of him just like lounging out in the backyard,

[00:56:08] having a conversation with one person, kind of trash talking people. It's just so interesting. So fun. Good person. Yep. Um, all right. Well, the next person out is going to be Aaron. Justice for Karen. Karen was another one who I immediately completely opposite from Alison, but I also watched this and I was like, Oh, I want to play like Karen. So, uh, so Karen,

[00:56:37] Karen goes out here on her own ally. Nakomas is HOH brutal results. Um, and this is because of the way that this competition was structured. So basically Nakomas wins the HOH and this should have, uh, been, uh, I, I said that drew and Diane won everything except for that one. HOH drew and Diane with the help of Michael were able to win. Um, she nominates drew and Michael. Um,

[00:57:07] she still has a relationship with Diane, but it doesn't really matter. Like, uh, she's hoping that Diane is the least likely person to use the veto because she recognizes that there is a blue ball, uh, just like the six fingered plan. Um, there is, there is, there is, uh, a little bit of, uh, a death star event, uh, here, uh, that could really spell some trouble for Nakomas. It's two V three right now. It's Nakomas and Karen versus drew Diane and cowboy, uh,

[00:57:37] which means as long as they're able to get Karen on the block, they will be able to vote Karen out. now, Nakomas is never going to voluntarily nominate Karen. So, uh, the only way to get, uh, uh, Karen on the block is if the person not on the block, AKA in this situation, Diane wins the veto and uses it and forces because there's no other options left. Nakomas to nominate Karen, which is exactly what happens in the veto competition.

[00:58:06] Drew and, uh, cowboy were able to help Diane win this competition, uh, intentionally aiding her so that she would win so that they could force Karen on the block. If this doesn't happen, the entire season may play out differently. Uh, but, uh, but ultimately really just, uh, just screws both Karen and Nakomas over Karen who had been in such a great spot for such a long time had really, uh,

[00:58:35] played a good social game, uh, and had strategically been in, a good position. Nakomas would played very well from the bottom, uh, to have gotten this far, uh, and had a great chance to win this game. They both get screwed over by this because Nakomas can't even compete in the following HOH after her HOH is used to take out her only ally. And Karen can't compete because Karen's now gone, which means it's just drew Diane, Diane and, uh,

[00:59:04] and cowboy competing in the final four HOH. Uh, uh, and she's forced to have to win that veto against the other three of them, uh, which she doesn't do. Um, so, uh, but this is it for, for Karen. Um, I think she, she's gotten her flowers a little bit, uh, uh, in like the last decade, but, uh, still, I think, you know, under reported, underrated as a player. Um, she wasn't like the biggest mastermind in the world,

[00:59:33] but I do think she is somebody who, uh, is not remembered as much as she should be for, uh, as strategic as she was and how much success that she had and how screwed she, she got. And it was always interesting that up until basically the point where she goes out, there's not a ton of conversation about needing to get her out. She was a little bit like a little bit Phoebe, Phoebe buffet ish sort of in personality. Um,

[01:00:01] I think some of that was just like her voice and, and looking at Karen now, like the fact that she was pretty steady with the Alliance and not too much trying to jump back and forth might've been why she was just looked at less. But, uh, I don't know. Maybe I feel some kinship now that I'm, now that I'm 30 and I'm realizing I was actually very happy to see her age and Adria and Natalie's cause it's like, man, is everybody just 25 on this season? No. Although once she's gone,

[01:00:29] the final four is very young. All of them. Very young. They are the 22, 23, 22, 21. Crowd. Um, so, uh, next out is of course, Nakomas, as we talked about, wasn't able to compete in that HOH. Did not win the veto. In fact, lost it to her brother, Michael. Cowboy Alice. Uh,

[01:00:55] and he then is the one to evict her, uh, having won that veto. Um, brutal, brutal result. Having been screwed the week before. And then, which may, maybe you would say if, maybe if you're a Jace fan, you would say, aha, hoisted by your own petard. Uh, you know, loophole got you too. Um, but, uh, but ultimately, yeah,

[01:01:25] screwed by, by that loophole in the previous week. And then ultimately evicted by her own brother, the following week. Um, who, who chooses, who really shouldn't be choosing to evict her. Uh, like he's, he does not win against either drew or Dan, nor does he win against the Comis quite frankly. Yeah. Although it's closer with drew than you think. You, it truly is.

[01:01:51] And it cowboy did actually accidentally find like the closest path to victory. I think he, he could have made, which is drew cutting Diane for him. Um, but at the time, cowboy is making this decision. Drew to my memory is not planning to take him to the final two. No. Well, drew is planning on hopefully once the Comis has gone, it's the final three. Drew's planning on throwing it and having either one of the two of them take him. It just doesn't go that way. Right. Like drew,

[01:02:20] like drew is not like, Oh, well I'll, you know, I drew is not planning to take a cowboy to the end at this point. It's very much like Diane and drew, like he's choosing to go with a showmance to the final three over his own sister. Um, which is absurd. Which is wild. Uh, like, yeah, but you know what? It's like, she's like, you didn't know her, but like, if she wins,

[01:02:47] like that's still like money going to your family to some, like you're, you're probably, you're not touching that money, but like, at least that's like helping people who are like in your visit, like helping your family, helping your long lost father. Like, uh, like there's still a significant thing. Even if you didn't think you had a chance to win, like at least have it go to your sister. And yeah, I mean, Cowboy has known Drew and Diane and Nokomis all for the exact same amount of time.

[01:03:17] Also, I'm just realizing, well, I guess with the exception of Jace, which is short for Jason, that, uh, Michael and Jennifer, if you forgot that's Nokomis's first name, are the two that have the, the major nicknames in the season too. See, they should have known. Although I don't know if Cowboy, did they come up with that in show? Or was that like, did he come in with that nickname? Um, they just gave him that nickname when he was wearing a cowboy hat. Well,

[01:03:45] that's a good question because there were two Mikes. Yes. So, although I noticed the Wikipedia page does not say Mike, the Don. That's, that's a failure of the Wiki page. Quite frankly. Um, but like, but whereas Nokomis came in and was like, yeah, my name's Jennifer. I go by Nokomis. Like, please call me that. I have to assume he did not go by cowboy regularly. I don't think so.

[01:04:14] He was not a cowboy. Um, no. And, uh, you know, I wonder if Sasha was standing him from being from Oklahoma. It's just like, if you are from Oklahoma, you might be considered a cowboy by people who aren't from Oklahoma. All right. Right. Like if you are, you know, Jace, I guess Jace is from Illinois. Uh, but if you're like, this is from Texas, she should have been like non cow girl. Right.

[01:04:44] It's just like, if you're not an actual cowboy in any real sense, then I feel like you probably is not your nickname, but who knows? Um, anyway, uh, Nikomis is out here. Uh, smart player. Again, very, very fun game to watch being nominated in the first week and making it really far. Um, one of the more successful players to ever have come back from that position. Um, but, uh, but ultimately, um, does not make it all the way. The end here.

[01:05:14] Died her hair in the house. I remember that. Yep. Yep. Big moment. So they don't have to let you do that, but I think a lot of hair stuff. I think because I think she might've even talked about this, like, because she had such a like unique look in the first place, they were more, she was more able to convince them to let her change her look because it was like, I'm, I'm already. Right. Different. You know? Um, I feel like they don't get hair stuff as much anymore.

[01:05:43] Like even in season four, like G got his whole haircut thing. You know, it's, uh, they don't like you changing your hair too much. So, uh, unless they can turn it into a storyline because then you just look different. And I guess they think that's bad. Yeah. Oh, well next out of course was Diane. Diane who went to the end with her showmance drew and then was cut by

[01:06:13] said showmance, um, in a scene that would eventually echo through big brother Canada too, uh, where drew essentially. Sort of at the last minute is going to go. I don't think I beat Diane. And I don't think Diane exactly helped her case in that regard. Uh, I think she was a little bit, a little bit too outwardly. Like, yeah, I think I'm going to win this.

[01:06:45] Did drew and Diane actually date after the show? See, this is what I care about. That's a good question. I feel like they didn't. They might've briefly. I'm not sure. See, you know what? And this was at the time when, if you go back and watch big brother six, they probably mentioned it because they would do that. They would be like, remember last season. Big brother couples still together. See where they are now. Wow. However,

[01:07:13] Diane appeared on the early show after her elimination and said, she forgave drew and that they were still dating. However, in 2006, Diane revealed that she and drew were just friends. So they apparently did date briefly or at some period of time, but by 2006, which was, uh, two years later, they were not dating. Hmm. No, well, what are you going to do? You know? And, and it just, uh, starts the,

[01:07:43] the long history of big brother couples who got together and then did not stay together for long. one of the, this is actually probably because you can't really count big brother Canada too, because they weren't actually dating at the time. Um, probably the only example of a showmance. No, you know what? Big brother Canada nine, but that was more of a throuple than a showmance. It's a true showmance.

[01:08:15] Um, well, you had big brother Canada six where there was a lot of talk of cutting the showmance. Yeah, but that's, they always talk about it, but they never actually do it unless you're drew. Yeah. Oh, well now I'm just scrolling through other big brother couples that you remember Austin and Liz. Wow. Okay. Speaking of twins, you know? Yeah. Okay. Interesting. Um,

[01:08:43] I did love in big brother five when they would do a lot of the interviews with the family back home and, um, and then you'd have like Diane's twin, Drew's twin talking about them and stuff. That was always fun. Yeah. Uh, Diane, one of the stars of the season, strategically, definitely, uh, a powerhouse of the season. Again, I would say like drew and Diane were, uh, this,

[01:09:11] this season is definitely a precursor for the modern era, um, in a way that most other seasons in this time period were not, we wouldn't get another sort of like glimpse of this until probably big brother 12. Um, but, uh, you had a showmance coming together, um, from different sides of the house, which was particularly beneficial to them, um, then dominating competitions, uh, and, um,

[01:09:38] and just like being not like the most conniving strategic players, but just very dominant strategic players. They both had good social relationships. They both won a lot of things and, uh, they just kind of didn't leave a lot of room for anybody else to be able to maneuver that season. Um, and Diane gets a lot of credit for that as she should, uh, but ultimately falls short of the win. And then of course, uh, when coming back for all stars did not, uh,

[01:10:07] managed to make it very far. Um, what do you think the vote would have been between Diane and drew? Um, either if she had won or if he had won. That's a good question. I would, I would assume you go, uh, will is for Diane. Um, I think the twins go Diane. Um, Marvin maybe goes true, but he had a weird thing with, with Diane. So who knows? I think Karen goes Diane.

[01:10:36] I think the Comus probably goes Diane. I think Diane then wins. Yeah. That's awesome. Maybe the twins go a different way. Cause who knows? But like, I think she probably wins. I think that one's, yeah, I think it's, it's close ish too. Um, but the twins, if the twins go for drew, but the thing is that the twins went for cowboy over drew. So like, which is, it's so interesting because, you know, drew, I feel like when I was thinking back on this, I was like, Oh yeah. Drew's plan was to throw the final three,

[01:11:05] H O H and have either cowboy or Diane take him. And I don't think that's actually his best play because I think if Diane takes him, she wins. So yeah. Yeah. And like I said, I think that she kind of, she kind of like lets that slip to him, um, that she felt pretty good about beating him in the end. And I think that kind of got his wheels turning, which is very drew, uh, like strategically, like he was never the most active player, but he always responded pretty well to things. Just like didn't really make a lot of active mistakes. Um, and was a good,

[01:11:35] just a very solid, we talked about him in like the very old now winter rankings podcast. Uh, he's just, he's that archetype of a solid, solid player, just solid socially, solid strategically, solid competitively. Um, it just, you know, you leave him alone for too long and there's a good chance. He's just going to walk into a win. Um, and you know, that's kind of what happens. Yeah.

[01:12:04] And he is for, for as great sort of all around as he is, I think he is much more forgotten in terms of the winners. Um, probably because he just doesn't have like a super, super dynamic personality. And I mean that in a good way. Like he feels very real, like a real person. You compare him to like Jason. It's like, um, but so I think that's why he's like you, if you were naming off all of the winners, it might be difficult to initially think of drew.

[01:12:34] Um, but I think all of that benefited him in getting as far as he did. Uh, unfortunately, if he had gone with Diane, I think just Diane might've had more actual relationships. She was a little bit more out front, but yeah. Yeah. What is with the spiky hair? Oh, 2004. It was so rough. Oh man. Uh, well, um, we talked about cowboy a lot already. Uh,

[01:13:04] he, you know, again, like probably his best spot here. He does still get the vote from Nokomis in the final two. Uh, he also gets the twins. Um, and with just one more vote, like say a burned Diane, uh, he could be the winner of big brother five, uh, which would have been wild. Um, ultimately that does not happen, but, uh, but cowboy, I mean,

[01:13:32] his legacy on the show is really just like the twist. And I think like a huge part of his storyline is wanting to be a bro and just kind of like going along with what they want. And, and I think that's ultimately why he loses, uh, because he just didn't seem to be enough of his own player. Um, yeah, not going to lie. I was Googling, do cowboy and Nokomis still talk?

[01:14:03] Um, I guess would be. There's a picture of them in 2019 together. So I'm sure they're, I'm sure they're friendly and cordial. I doubt they have like a close relationship. Yeah. It was just so weird, but I mean, I guess, you know, cause they were very different people. They're very different. They live farther apart. And it'd be weird just, just because it's almost like, yes, they're siblings, but it's almost like if you met someone and they're like, oh, this is your second cousin. And you'd be like, oh, didn't know you were my second cousin.

[01:14:33] Okay, cool. I mean, you can see a family reunion. You could grow up with a sibling. You don't like click with super well, you know? Yeah. Yeah. But it seems like, yeah, unclear about, unclear post 2019, but, but yeah, they, they apparently did not like never talk again. So there's, there's that.

[01:15:05] Interesting. Cowboy was such an interesting player. I really don't understand how, I guess it's sort of that kind of thing where you have, when you have an alliance and then they're like, oh, we got to, got to get out. Scott got to get out. Jace got to get out. Holly. And then you kind of get down to the cap. Oh yeah. We'll just let him stay. Who cares? And then the infighting took place. And I think what's interesting about both Cowboy and, uh, Nokomis is that like, they were both cast for a very specific reason.

[01:15:34] And because of that, you can kind of, you know, maybe assume, even though we shouldn't, uh, but you can, you can maybe take a guess that these are two people that might not have been cast, uh, otherwise, like whether they were applying like Cowboy or certainly, you know, they, I don't think they were ever going to find Nokomis to recruit her without those, uh, without this particular reason.

[01:15:58] And so these are people that are outside of the kinds of people that you normally see on the show, uh, that, that were cast for the specific reason. Um, and I do think they are two of the more unique people to ever play, um, in, in some good ways. And in some bad ways. Uh, and so, um, you know, that's, that is, I think an interesting legacy to leave as well.

[01:16:26] And I think I've mentioned before that there are certain people, and I can believe Cowboy is one of them who get cast purely based on like their look. It's almost like you see a picture of them, you see their name. Well, if he went by Cowboy and you're like, ah, yes, we're going to cast him because there's probably something there. You hear his voice. You're like, ah, yes. We don't really care about how he's actually going to play the game or what his actual skills on this art. No, no, no. We're just going to cast you based on 100% archetype.

[01:16:56] Um, even though he's pretty unique, it's, it's just sort of, it's almost like he's like that belt buckle. He's wearing a costume of a guy who wants to be a cowboy. Uh, has he ever ridden a horse? Who would know? Um, all right. Well, uh, we've already talked a lot about Drew. I mean, that's, that's kind of the season. Um, I mean, the, the season ends, uh,

[01:17:26] the highest rated episode of the season is the finale where Drew is going to cut Diane and take home the win. Um, and, uh, you know, that is not always the case on seasons that the finale has the most viewers, but, uh, that was the case for season five because it's a, it's a very, I mean, it's kind of, I think everything that the show has wanted for a long time, which is just like somebody making a brutal betrayal and then, and then being rewarded for it. Um,

[01:17:54] and it's not brutal in the same way that Alison was with Nathan. It's more, see, I don't know if I would agree with that. Cause I feel like Alison reveled in it. I don't think Drew reveled in it. No. Uh, but I think he was a lot harder because of the, I think he owed her a lot more. Yeah. But if you're drew and the path to win, look, cowboy cuts his sister. Drew cuts the girl. He's sort of in a showman's with, but he's also known for the same amount of time.

[01:18:26] Yeah. Um, plus, if the romance was going to work out, then it didn't matter who won. Sadly, they're not the Robin Amber of big brother. Well, that, well, that's, that's truly the chicken or the egg question, right? Because like, if the romance was going to work out, would they be the kind of romance where one of them would cut the other? Probably not. I don't know. Um, all right. Well,

[01:18:55] season five, a wild ride. Um, and, and really, I think like the, the furthest, the furthest the show goes with the, these like casting twists, season six, we'll have secret partners, which feels a bit more tame in comparison. Um, even though they are still doing these casting twists, uh, in general. Um, and I would say arguably the most successful of these twists. So it's a little strange that they did decide ultimately to,

[01:19:24] to ramp it down a little bit. Um, but, uh, but this is not like unheard of in, in other international versions, they had similar styles of twists. Um, it's just that with the strategic game on top of it, it was something very unique to big brother that, that they were able to do not only showing live feeds of what was happening, but also the fact that they're playing a game and that all of it exists within the context of the game made it so much more interesting and so much more compelling. Um, and so,

[01:19:54] uh, season five definitely leaves a lot of, uh, you know, leaves a lot with its legacy. Um, but, uh, but I think ultimately the one thing you have to remember is you're not assuming. Uh, I wonder, I can't remember if at any point did Julie say, you know what happens when you assume? I doubt it. So that would have been good.

[01:20:22] She had had like a Marcellus moment like that. Who are our top three? Who's on the poster? See this one, I think is we're getting a little bit more tricky because, I have, so I feel like Nokomis is there. I feel like there are a lot of contenders. I feel like Nokomis is there. I think it's wild, but true that I think Jace could get a lot of votes considering Jace was out so early. I just think that he's so memorable. Um,

[01:20:54] I think you could put the twins or one of the twins, but they're not, they're not actually, I don't know. It's hard. It's the twist. And then do you put, do you put cowboy? Do you put Diane? I think this is the first time where I think it's actually hard to, hard to put the winner. It's there's, yeah, there's, I mean, there's a lot of options, right? You have, I mean, all stars picked Diane, Nokomis, and Jace. Um, is that what the audience will pick for the poster?

[01:21:23] I don't know. Uh, you do have the winner drew. Um, and there we, Lisa was not on the poster for season three. So, uh, which, which I think is funny because Lisa is the other, uh, example that I usually use as like the archetype for just like solid overall player, but doesn't really stand out, uh, in any one category. Um, and, uh, so you, so you have those options, but you do also have cowboy, uh, who was an option for, uh, for coming back a couple of times.

[01:21:53] Um, never did. Uh, but definitely season potential. Yep. He was, uh, him, Brian Hart, uh, Jessica and, uh, and Jesse. Right. Um, so, uh, what, what might've been, um, but you also, you also have players like, uh, cowboy, uh, as I mentioned, um, who is a big part of the season. You have the winner drew, you have Jace,

[01:22:23] uh, who are, sorry, I already mentioned Jace is one of the all-stars, but you also, as you said, the twins, uh, you could have one of the twins in there potentially. Um, and then of course, uh, Mike, the Don Lubinsky, uh, is obviously a top choice. But you also have Marvin, like Marvin, I think would be a great choice to put on the poster. I, you do genuinely have a lot of good options. I think. All right. Here's what I want. I mean, first off you could do it. And what about Karen? Well, okay. See, that's the thing. I love Karen,

[01:22:53] but I don't think anyone's going to put her on the poster, but I would. What a statement it would make. Karen underrated. Um, I think here's my vote. I think that you need to do potentially another winner ranking podcast. Cause there's been so many more seasons since you last did it. But I also feel like first boots. I want to know first boot rankings. And how far does the Don go? Listen, the Don is, is a top first boot. He's going to crush.

[01:23:22] He's going to crush all of your faves. It's going to crush Justin. Does Justin count as a first boot? I don't know. Maybe. which Justin? From season two. Is that his name? Was it Justin? Oh, Justin Simic. Um, I would not count Justin. I would count, um, Cheryl. Cheryl. I was going to say Tanya. Who's Tanya? Season three. Okay. Um, yeah, I don't know.

[01:23:48] So I voted and I will say that my vote was for Nokomis, Jace and cowboy just because they were so memorable to me. Um, like if I had to name all the people from the cast, I'm, but I, I would easily swap any one of them for Diane pretty easily. I think, I think Drew's a stretch. I think Drew is fourth or fifth pick. I do. I, yeah, I, I, I gotta say, I feel like Drew is not with so many options. I feel like Drew is hard to justify. Yeah.

[01:24:16] And that's sad because it's not like I'm saying that cowboy played a better game. I just think his name and face is more memorable. Um, yeah, I don't know. And do you think the twins would split votes? Like, should we be saying if you're going to vote for a twin, I think if you're going to vote for a twin, you have to vote for Adria, even though like we could go back and look at the tapes and find out that Natalie actually did all the interesting things. But Adria was the name, the one twin for so long. Yeah. So that's my stance here. If you're going to vote for one over Adria.

[01:24:46] All right. Well, uh, anything else about season five? No, it's a good time. I think I would love to think about like what the, what the eras of big brother are. When does it change from whatever this era is? And I think we're close. I think we're close to entering a new era. Obviously next season, there's going to be a new house. This is the last time in the OG big brother house. Um, but I think after season, you can either break it after season five, six or seven.

[01:25:16] And then I feel like it feels very different after that for a while. So, uh, the old days, this is making me want to go back and rewatch. Maybe sometime. All right. Well, that is it then for season five of big brother. Next week, we'll be back to talk about season six of the show. Uh, that was the big one for me as a kid that, you know, that really drew me in. That was,

[01:25:45] I think by far the most engaged the audience had ever been. Um, and, uh, there's a lot there, a lot there in season six to talk about. So good luck picking the, uh, cover of the DVD for season six. That one's going to be hard. Yeah. All right. Well, uh, stay tuned for that. In the meantime, you can find me over on Twitch, uh, check out, uh, you know what I'm doing over there, hanging out, playing games, talking about big brother sometimes. Um, and, uh,

[01:26:15] we, we got some other stuff going on as well over at, uh, we know scripted TV, which is, uh, our scripted side of the podcast here at RGP. Um, we have a YouTube channel over there. We have a feed for it on, in your podcast apps. I have a podcast called the tastemakers, where we talk about all the new, latest stuff, uh, and news and, and things of what's worth checking out. Uh, what do you need to know? Check out the tastemakers to find out. Um, and, uh, that's pretty much it. Mary, what do you got going on?

[01:26:46] Uh, you can follow me everywhere at frail Mary. If you're local to where I am, come see me in a play. Um, um, um, otherwise, uh, we've got coming up pretty soon, right around the corner around Valentine's ish. We've got another season coming out of love is blind. So that'll be over on the, uh, love at first site feed with myself and Asia and Jason. So definitely check that out. Uh, good times over there. And otherwise, you know what?

[01:27:13] Just tell your friends about this BB retrospective podcast, because it's great. And we should be giving more appreciation to the older seasons of Big Brother while we're in this Big Brother drought. All right. Well, thank you all so much for joining us here today. And I will see all of you next time. Wir sind Teresa und Nemo. Und deshalb sind wir zu Shopify gewechselt. Die Plattform,

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