Ashley Hollis on How to Win Big Brother

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[00:00:59] lettuce.co. Hello, everyone. Hello, everyone. And welcome back to RHAP with our preseason coverage of Big Brother. I'm your host, Aaron Armstrong, and I am once again joined by the winner of Big Brother to help give you some tips and tricks and everything in between. Ashley is with me. How are you doing, Ashley? Hey, I'm doing great. Excited to be here. Reunited again.

[00:01:40] Yes, Ashley, the most recent winner of Big Brother 27 of Big Brother. She won Big Brother 27. So truly, I think like the most relevant person to hear from in terms of like what might come on Big Brother 28 and how to handle it. Ashley, how are you doing? How have you been?

[00:02:01] I'm doing amazing. I'm doing amazing. I've been doing so good. I'm so excited for this new season and to see somebody take my, you know, take my place, take the thunder. It's only right to pass the torch. So. Yes, there's a maybe probably small chance, but there's a chance that the person who is going to take that crown is listening and or watching right now. Yes, there is. There's a good chance, actually, because everybody knows Taran Armstrong. Duh.

[00:02:34] Be the reality TV legend. Yes. As I've explained to the various winners of the show at this point, last season, people came onto the show. So they said, I asked ChatGPT how to win the game. And so now instead of asking ChatGPT, we're asking actual winners of the show how to win. So that I guess when people ask ChatGPT, it'll just steal this and plan it.

[00:03:02] Yes, steal our, steal all the winners. Like, oh, hey, I mean, what better way to learn than from someone who actually did it, right? So way better than ChatGPT. Exactly, exactly. All right, Ashley, there's a few things that I want to talk to you specifically about. One is something that we haven't talked too much about with the previous winners, which is obviously, I think, when people think of your win,

[00:03:28] one of the big things they think of is cutting Morgan at the end, taking like a lot of people felt like Morgan had all this momentum. You win that final competition and you make the tough choice to betray your ally, Morgan, and go to the end with Vince. This is something that, you know, a lot of players have faced in Big Brothers, like take their ally or take the person that they think is maybe easier to beat.

[00:03:57] And many of them don't make that choice. Nice. So talk to me about your decision to of like who to take to the end, why you made it and like what the challenges are for something like that. Yes. So I knew probably once we got to final five for sure, I knew I wanted to take Vince. I have strategically weighed all my options with all of the players left.

[00:04:23] Even honestly, I would say even when we were at like eight, seven and eight, I was weighing my options because you just never know who's going to make it and who's going to be there at the end. And I wanted to already strategize exactly who I would take in every single scenario. So I weighed my odds between like Ava and Morgan, if we were the final three, Ava and Vince, you know, Vince and Morgan, like every single pretty much way that could have happened once we were in that final seven, final eight.

[00:04:50] I knew exactly who I was going to do in every scenario, because when you make rash decisions in the game and life, even often it doesn't really work out. You really need to think things through. And so I really weighed pros and cons. And then not only did I weigh pros and cons, but I also weighed my what my strategic arguments would be versing each person. What were the things that they had ahead of me like that made them better, that made them stronger? And what were some things that I could use that to minimize? So if I saw their strength, what was going to be my rebuttal?

[00:05:19] And the rebuttal specifically, I didn't start thinking about until we were in final three, because that actually takes a lot of time and energy to think about, OK, how can I minimize each person's, you know, kind of what what makes them to be a strong winner? Right. Because every single person in that final five, especially the final three, had a reason why they should win and why they played an amazing game and why they made it that far. And so when I came down to Vince and Morgan, for me, I knew that Morgan was super strong competitively.

[00:05:48] Like she obviously won so many vetoes in a row. It was crazy. And so although she only won what two HOHs and one I threw to her, obviously, but she won like six vetoes. I don't even know how many vetoes she won in a row. She won that many vetoes in a row. And so I knew that people always think that competition wins are kind of, you know, what makes you a big brother winner. So I knew I was going to have those decks stack against me, because at that point, I'd only won one competition before we made it to the final, you know, three part HOH.

[00:06:17] So I knew that that was going to be something that would really cut against me. If I was sitting next to Morgan, though, which I also prepared to, because here's the thing. She had been winning. She had been winning all of the comps. I actually am not the biggest BB super fan, so I couldn't remember what the last competition was. So I was freaked out. I was like, it's going to be strength again, because every competition has been strength. So I was like, she's going to win. But I knew if it was mental, I was going to be able to take it because those are the comps I'm strong at.

[00:06:45] That's like the one veto I won. I was like strictly a mental competition. So, you know, I prepared for both. And something for me that I prepared for is, OK, what are the things that she has over me? But also, what are her weaknesses? And on top of her weaknesses, what are things that are strong that I could try to make seem like weaknesses? And so, you know, for me, if I was versing Morgan, one thing would be the first half of her game was simply around Vince.

[00:07:15] Like she made a lot of moves that had to do with Vince, that Vince had in mind or to protect him. And she almost used the veto on him that one week when Mickey went home. She really almost did that. And so I was going to, you know, try to tie her game to him so closely that people would try to think, you know, OK, maybe maybe, you know, we have her a little bit wrong. Yes, the second half of the game, it was definitely opposite. And it was, you know, her controlling Vince's HOH is a lot more.

[00:07:45] But everybody knew in the house, we all talked about it, especially once we got to like that final five. Me and Keanu talked, me and Ava talked, and it was very clear that everyone did think that Vince ran her game the first half. So I knew that if I could kind of remind people like, OK, yeah, she's had a strong game. Like it's something. Hey, it's a Hail Mary, right? Like you can't give up.

[00:08:06] And then I think another thing when you're thinking about the end is also prepare your speeches, like prepare it, say it out loud as many times as you can. Because I think Vince, where he really gritted, I'm not going to lie. I know this might sound cocky, but I knew I was being Vince walking into that final two speech or not. I knew that I had just like had a way better social game and that people would value that more in the jury because I had talked to every single person.

[00:08:35] OK, once we made it to final five, I had talked actually, no, final six or seven. I had talked to every single person and asked them like right before they were leaving, who should I sit next to at the end? And everybody said that. Everybody said that. So I knew if I chose him, that was going to help me. So if you're listening to this, don't be afraid to ask the people, you know, who should I sit next to? Who do you see me winning next to? Because they're going home anyway.

[00:09:01] OK, honestly, what people don't see on Big Brother is we all talk before. I know the edits make it seem like, oh, my gosh, last minute, last minute. But we pretty much have in mind what we're doing, you know, before it happens. Now, there are some things like the Riley vote where there were some people who were kind of swaying which way. But that was pretty. Yeah, that's pretty was the only time I would say that that.

[00:09:24] Although more common now that the blockbuster exists, plans do change last minute more often now than they used to, for sure. For sure. But I would say once we got to the jury phase and the blockbuster ended. So when was that final six or final that was in blockbuster? I remember going on a little too long. It was it did. I think it was final five. OK, so around final five block when blockbuster ended, like we knew we were sending Keanu home. Vince knew he was sending Ava home. These are things that we already knew.

[00:09:54] So don't be afraid to go ask them like, hey, who should I sit next to? Now, don't ask it straight up. Have like a 30 minute combo first, you know, to make them feel comfortable and to make them feel safe. And like that they can open up to you and then see how they're feeling. And if you don't want to ask that straight up, be like, who would you want to sit next to? You know, because that's also reverse psychology. OK. Yeah. And the thing I like about that, too, is that and you're right, it depends on kind of your relationship with them,

[00:10:22] because like if you're the one sending them home, like they're probably not going to be interested in that conversation. But if they're open to it and they give you a name like that and then you end up in the end with that person, it kind of they kind of might feel like they were a part of it. Like I gave her that advice and she listened and then she made it happen. And those are all very good things to sort of connect the dots with.

[00:10:47] Absolutely. And that's something I don't know, people, if you watch my season at the final Keanu was he mentioned something. He didn't mention like obviously our full conversation, but he did mention, I think when Julie was asking them questions, he was like, I told her she needed to make a big move like for her to get my vote and she made a big move. Or maybe that's what he said when he casted the vote. I don't remember, but he said that somewhere in the finale. And that was part of our conversation. Right. Like what will it take for you to vote for me to win?

[00:11:15] Sometimes you just got to straight up. You have nothing to lose, especially if they're in a position where it's not a blind side. Now, if it's a blind side, you obviously can't do that. But for us and BB 27, none of the final five or six, you know, were blind side. So yeah, take it. Take advantage of those moments. I talk a lot about this as well. And you did this very well, especially with Will, who is like an ally of yours. You were able to kind of like send Will to the jury house with some specific instructions as well.

[00:11:42] Yes. This is something that Dan Giesling did with Keisha very effectively. He talked about how he needed to get to the end with Memphis. Right. And she agreed Memphis over Jerry gave her talking points. It's something Nicole did with Corey and Big Brother 18 before he left. If you have that ally who is really loyal to you and they're going home and it's not your fault, or at least you've been able to convince them it's not your fault. Yeah. Then like that's that can be really, really incredibly valuable to be able to like,

[00:12:12] at the very least, like send them in and work for you, but also like to know what they might be arguing so that you can kind of corroborate that with your Absolutely. Future speeches and other things. Absolutely. Absolutely. And that actually brings me to another thing that I did when we were in the final three. I made Morgan feel so safe, like I'm but I never specifically ever said I was taking her.

[00:12:38] You have to be really careful about lying to people at that delicate point at the very end, because at the end of the day, they could be the make or break vote that you need. So I would really advise people to handle that very delicately. Now, obviously, I ended up being six to one and she didn't vote for me anyway, and I need her vote to win. But it's not like I knew exactly how that was going to play out. And so for me, it was really important that I could keep up kind of my strong points that were going to be in my final speech,

[00:13:06] which is that I stayed loyal to the people that I was loyal to. You know, I didn't tell any crazy outlandish lies outside of when I actually had to, especially to the people that I was loyal to. And I was able to counter that. You know, the person sitting next to me, he lied unnecessarily, you know, so it's also staying true to the points that you know that you're going to make in your final speech. Don't just veer off from that at the very end because you just never know how the jury is feeling. You're not in that jury house.

[00:13:33] So I never blatantly told her that I was going to take her, but I never didn't tell her I was going to take her either. I just every time that we talked about the final two, I spend it and was like anytime she would try to ask me, I'd be like, you know, I'm not going to make that decision anyway. You've been winning all the competitions. Like, girl, it's obviously it's your game. Like, you're the one who's going to have to make the decision and I'm the right person because I know I'm getting sick. You know, making that person feel very comfortable can also make them underprepare.

[00:14:00] And from what I heard from the live feeds, like Morgan's speech wasn't going to be super, super short. She hadn't had like a full speech prepared. And so I think it was also... Her and Vince were too... They were arguing so much. Like they didn't have a lot of time to prepare. No. And so I think it's like, okay, she felt super comfortable and safe for the most part that she was going to be the one making that final decision. And so I would like to say from what I've seen on live feeds and like people saying things, she underprepared.

[00:14:29] She didn't prepare enough because she thought that that was going to be it. And you know what? She had every reason to. She had been winning. She was a strong competitor. All the things, right? But don't get too cocky at the end. Like don't get too cocky at the end. We saw it with Monty, right? He easily could have won the entire game his season, but he got cocky. He didn't think through all of the clear options between the number two and number three. And he chose the wrong person at the end.

[00:14:57] And that is a game time decision. And that's what goes back to me saying in the beginning of this video, do not make the game time decision without weighing every single possibility. Yeah. I mean, it goes back to just make sure you choose the right person to bring with you. And at the end of the day, it's going to be tough. I've talked about this with a couple of other winners. Like, you know, somebody goes to the jury house on day 40 something and then they vote on day like 90 something.

[00:15:26] And it's like, you don't, they could be different, a different person by then. Yes. With completely different relationships and different thoughts on the game. And so you never really know for sure. But you should always, I think, lean toward like who is the most impressive person? What would be the more impressive thing to do? Absolutely. You know, Monty was maybe a little bit tough there because I think he was trying to do that. But he just completely misread the situation. Yeah. Underestimated Taylor.

[00:15:56] Underestimated, yeah. Overestimated Turner. Yes. And so, you know, you just have to be. And there, you know, there's a world where, oh, what if people ended up really respecting Vince and not being as respected, respectful of Morgan? Like, could have happened. Yeah. Yeah. But you were able to read that, right? You were able to read that like, no, people are pretty pissed at Vince actually. And I don't think they're going to come around on it. For sure.

[00:16:22] And I was also banking on, even if they had came around, because I was like, as much as Rachel and I were very, very close, I was still like, I know she respects like a good game.

[00:17:01] And I also know that she respects competition. You know, like she was a fan of Rachel or one other person. My way, I already had prepared. Okay. Vince, Morgan ran your whole game. Like, Morgan ran the whole end of the game, you know? She controlled whether people should have gone up. You should have put me up that week. But you put Lauren up, your own closest ally. That makes no sense. So my point was that I was just going to, you know, counteract all of his in-game moves and, you know, try to make it seem like he didn't really play the game that he should have played.

[00:17:28] He played Morgan's game. Right. And you kind of just have to toss everything out there that you can. Obviously, I went over on all my speeches. I talked for way more, but it's way better to like, you know, what do they say? Better safe than sorry. Like throw it all out there. You have nothing to lose. It's $750,000. And that's just that. This episode sponsored by Little Words Project. Your jewelry should say something about you.

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[00:18:22] Plus, every bracelet includes a registration code so you can pass it on someday and keep the story moving. Right now, build your stack or create a custom bracelet at littlewordsproject.com. Little Words Project. Your word. Your wrist. Your story. Yeah. And part of the reason why you knew exactly how people felt about Vince is because you talked to them about how they were feeling about people and what they were likely to vote. So all very important stuff for jury management.

[00:18:50] Something else that you did, of course, was you hid the fact that you were a lawyer. And it's funny because Xavier did the same. And when I talked to Xavier, he was like, never, never give up your secret. Why? Why would you ever do that? Yeah. And you didn't really, but you did end up using it in specific ways. So talk to me about like how you made that decision eventually.

[00:19:15] Yes. So with Will, it was that I wanted him to feel safe. He was feeling really on the outs. He was feeling like he wanted to go home. And I don't know, for whatever reason in my brain, I was like, you know what? If I tell him like a big secret that only he knows, maybe he'll feel closer to me and closer to me than Mickey. Because at the time that I told Will, he was very close with Mickey, like almost closer to Mickey than me. And I did not like that.

[00:19:41] Obviously, like I was very close with Mickey, but I was I wanted to be closer with Will than Mickey. And so I ended up telling him pretty early on, maybe like week three or five. I don't I don't really remember. But earlier on than not. And he was the only one I told. And I was just banking that he was going to hold that secret to the grave. And then, you know, at the final hour, I was like, you know what?

[00:20:05] This is something that I, you know, need to make sure is plotted perfectly in the jury because I don't want anybody to know now. I want it to be like a bang surprise. Oh, yeah. You thought I wasn't playing the game. I was playing it the whole time like I was playing you and I wanted it to be kind of like a boom situation. Now, obviously, I didn't realize he stole my thunder a little bit by telling people very early on. You did tell him not to, to be fair. I told him not to.

[00:20:34] But I think, you know, I think it was fine because it worked out. Yeah. Yeah. Let it cook on them and let them think, you know, during that time in jury, especially when everybody came back. And I think I think your point stands in that, like, you know, it was you were in a position, I think, where, like, for instance, Xavier was never really in a position where he needed to throw out secrets to bond with people because he already had so many people that he was that he had.

[00:21:03] And like sort of throwing out a secret out of nowhere wouldn't have done much for him. You had to take, I think, a little bit of a riskier position of like, I really I think I can trust Will with this secret. I think if I give it to him, it'll win him over and that'll be valuable to me. And if it comes back to bite me, at least I got something in the short term. And so, you know, like I've been saying through all of this, I think this all comes down to just like, what is your position in the game? You can take all of this advice.

[00:21:32] You can take all of these examples. But at the end of the day, you just have to like, you have to be able to assess where you are and what makes sense for you to do in that moment. Because different positions are going to require different solutions. Absolutely. I think if I didn't already feel like he was someone that I could trust and he hadn't shown me that prior through other smaller actions, I would not have done it. As everybody saw, I didn't tell anybody else literally the entire game because information like that can blow up your game.

[00:22:03] OK, it's like a make it or break it situation because if people feel like you lied about something the whole way through, you know, and they find out week five, six and then on, then they don't trust you at all. And there's really no buying that back. And so I knew that early on, I wanted to be building trust with people so that later on, if I'm not telling the truth, nobody would think that.

[00:22:25] And I think that's something that my plan that worked out actually perfectly, because at the end game, Vince and Morgan had known me as somebody who was very blunt and very straightforward. And so they took every single thing I said as word at the end of the game. And I was straight up lying. OK, I was exaggerating. I was lying. And then I saw back there repeating the exact thing I said, because when you build a reputation early on in the game, people are going to take that for what it is.

[00:22:52] People recognize patterns and they're going to take it for word. And so my advice to people playing the game is your word is everything in the beginning of the game. Do not tell crazy, unnecessary lies early on because people will remember. But if you're someone that people just trust and, you know, they know, OK, she's going to tell it like it is and she's going to, you know, be very blunt and straightforward and a shoulder to lean on.

[00:23:16] When you need a fib and you need to tell a little lie, they're not going to even they're not even going to think, you know, and that's something that really, I think, bought me. God bless Mickey, but bought me favor with her in the game is that that week that, you know, it was between me and her and, you know, her and Vince going home. She truly believed everything that I said that I would never turn against her, because honestly, until that week, I would have never turned against her.

[00:23:44] And I showed that through my actions that like, OK, you know, when my back was against the wall, what was that week five going on week six? And I knew that she was really upset with me about the Jimmy situation. I, you know, drop. OK, well, Zach, Zach was going to vote out Will, right? I'd been holding that information. And so I use that to buy more trust and buy more favor. So I think it's also another advice I have that's huge in the game.

[00:24:11] Take secrets and don't go running back and telling other people until you figure out a way to strategically use it. And that's something I talked about in my final speech a lot, because I think that's something that really helped me in the game. Had I told Mickey right away what happened with Zach, her being mad at Jimmy, I would have had nothing to buy back favor, right? I already gave her that information. So now she's just pissed at me and I can't buy back favor. You need to use secrets to buy back favor in that house because you just never know when your back is going to be against the wall.

[00:24:40] And unfortunately for me, my back was against the wall more times than not. The first half of the game, especially just because of how the first day went or the first night, you know, that shower gate. It really kind of had me start off kind of backpedaling and needing to forward pedal, forward pedal, forward pedal those first four weeks. And yeah, I think it's strategically knowing when to tell, you know, tell secrets. And even what was that going to week eight? I did that with Ava.

[00:25:08] I knew Mickey had told me in the shower, I don't know if they showed this, but she had told me that Ava was going to put me up on the block. Right now I'm in a situation. I'm against Mickey on the block. I don't know who's going to win the blockbuster. So now I need to submit that Ava is going to vote to keep me. I felt that she was. But what what can I do to make sure that she does not trust the person sitting next to me? Oh, you know what? I'm going to go tell her that Mickey, you know, even though this happened five days ago, she doesn't need to know that.

[00:25:38] Mickey told me that you were going to put me up on the block. How else would I know that? Right. Because obviously she really was going to put me up on the block was a really good thing. And who else would she knows will win and betray her. So it's using those moments as pivots to buy back trust with people and kind of submit your position in the game rather than if I told her right away, what is that going to do? If I told her right when Mickey told me, she probably would have gone right to Mickey and been like, why did you do that? You know, and then now this secret backfired on me because now.

[00:26:08] Mickey's not going to trust me. So I think that's really important in the game, knowing when to share things. That's something that's really pivotal. And like, as you said, Xavier was like king of doing that. He knew don't I don't need to everybody trust me already. I don't need to be telling people my secrets. Something I want to emphasize as well that you that you pointed out was like that you didn't tell Ava when you learned it.

[00:26:34] And that's, I think, something important to emphasize, because like if you do wait to share a secret, you have to either have a good reason why you didn't say it before or like mess up the timeline because it otherwise might seem transparent. If it's like, oh, well, this thing happened a week ago. Why are you only telling me now? Oh, it's right. Right.

[00:26:57] And that was something that bothered me and was one of the reasons that I started distrusting Mickey a little bit more was that she ended up telling me that Morgan knew the secret about the power. Like Morgan had known the whole time. I'm like, you didn't tell me.

[00:27:16] And why am I just finding this out? So that was when I started realizing, oh, you're actually as much as you talk about Morgan, you're actually closer with her in some capacity game wise than me, because you didn't tell me that information. You're telling me this now, two weeks, you know, weeks after it happened, you won this power. When was that week two? And now you're telling me like at the very end of week four, like Morgan, Morgan knew this whole time.

[00:27:40] And so that was a little flub by her because it's like, now I know that you don't fully trust me because you waited all this time to tell me this big secret. So it's like that. Yeah, I think that's something you have to really watch. But Mickey, again, I stand firm. She was the best player the first five weeks of the game. She was the strongest player. She had the strongest game. She was someone I was able to analyze and kind of like soak up though, too.

[00:28:05] How are they playing the game and how can I play similar in some capacities and like what things can I take from other people? And I think that's something that you should also analyze when you're in the game. Who are the strongest players? Why do they have power? And how can I emulate some of the things that they're doing to get my own power? Right. Like, how do I change my position? It's a great point, especially you mentioned shower gate. I think that this is potentially very valuable for anybody that like you don't always have a great start.

[00:28:32] Sometimes things happen and you end up a little bit of a pariah and you have to that. That's a very, very difficult position to work from. Um, you know, Keanu never left that position. The whole time he was there, he was able to win a bunch of competitions that helped him out. Yes. You were not winning competitions.

[00:28:52] And I do think one of the ways that you, uh, survived that portion of the game was that you were able to identify a few key players that did hold some power and you were able to get in with them. Um, so like, it's like, what, what would you say to somebody that's, that has a terrible first impression? Everybody's like, oh, that person's weird. Uh, like, uh, why are they, why do they shower so long? What do you, what do you do in that spot? So the first thing you do is sit back.

[00:29:20] So that was quite literally the opposite of my game plan coming in initially coming in. And I thought right away I'd be forming alliances and I'd be finding a bunch of people to work with. Now I wouldn't be starting into the alliances. That was something I knew I did not want to do, but I thought I would be connecting with people immediately having all these alliances and being able to have, you know, all of my bases covered and kind of create the shell around me. And luckily later in the game, I was able to do that. But the first few weeks I was not.

[00:29:47] So it was really just sitting back and analyzing who has the power. Okay. If I see who's, and also that starts with figuring out who was talking to who. So I would walk around the house and like, I don't even know if they showed this on live feeds or I know they didn't show on the show, but on live feeds, I would get up in the middle of the night and I would go to the bathroom and I would walk through. And I was analyzing who was staying up late and still talking.

[00:30:13] And that was how I picked up Vince, Morgan and Zach immediately. Very fast. Literally started week two. I figured out that those three were aligned and they were being secretive about it because they were not meeting until the middle of the night. It'd be like literally like 3am. Late night conversations are huge. It's when most of the strategy, like serious strategy talk happens because you're, it's more private, which means number one, try to stay up as late as possible.

[00:30:43] And number two, absolutely pay attention to who else is staying up late. And, and don't believe a word of that, them saying like, Oh no, we're just hanging out. Yes. They said that. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. They said that that was the first thing because Morgan, um, something about Morgan, she games 24 seven, which is why like we, we love Morgan.

[00:31:09] She's great to watch on TV because she's constantly gaming and she's great for live feeders, but because she's gaming, she was overplaying in the first few weeks. Um, and that was where I was able to just get information on accident because at the second she saw me the next morning, after she saw that I walked by and saw them talking, she immediately was like, Oh my God. Yeah. I was up late, uh, talking to Vince and more. We just always talk. We just talk about, you know, life and like things and like that. And she was starting to ramble.

[00:31:37] Uh, uh, red flag antenna up because why are you feeling the need to explain to me what you were doing? Right. If you're not doing something that you're not supposed to, you know what I mean? That you're guilty of doing. When in anybody's life, have you had a late night, like 3am conversation that was totally casual and means nothing. Exactly. Exactly. And like that happened. I think I caught them. I think I waited maybe like one day and then did it again where I got up at like three or something in the morning and I went to the bathroom.

[00:32:07] Cause I'm going to pee. That's all I'm doing. I pee in the middle of the night. Like, uh, and I saw them again. And then after seeing them maybe like three days in a row at the same exact time at the same exact spot in the wine room. And then during the day I'm analyzing who's going to the workout room. You know, who's going to the gym. Cause people will slowly trickle into the gym because they don't want to make it seem like everybody's going in at once. We have this big alliance meeting or like whatever. But if you just watch, okay. One person went up, boom. Okay. They never came out. Clock it. Okay.

[00:32:37] 20 minutes. Oh. Two more people went up there. None of nobody came out. Clock it. And that's how I figured out that Mickey, Morgan, Vince, and Zach were all working together because I was clocking when people were going in and out of rooms and who was even coming out. Is anybody coming out? And so then I was like, I'm going to use this to my advantage. I saw Vince, Morgan at night. Because I'm like, okay, hold on.

[00:33:05] During the day they have meetings with the four of them, but at night they don't include Mickey. Mickey, you're not really in with them the way you think you are because they're meeting in the middle of the night. And that's little information I was able to do. And now, yes, was that risky? And people were like confused. Why I was spilling the beans early on. I had nothing to lose is what people don't realize. We're like, messy Ashley, messy Ashley. Ashley, I'm like, no, I'm doing it on purpose because there comes a point when your back is in the wall or against the wall.

[00:33:34] You have no choice but to be messy and hope that you can break some of these early alliances up. Because once people get too strong and they feel too comfortable with each other, they're never going to turn on each other. Right. Not especially not in the beginning of the game. Because numbers matter more than, you know, how you actually feel about people. So it's a great point. And I think it's something that like before you can even get to any of the other advice, so many players get stuck in first gear where it's just like you enter the game.

[00:34:03] You don't get invited into the big secret alliance. And there always is one. There always is one. And then you just kind of go, oh, I guess this is just how we're playing. And then you end up getting picked off or maybe you get lucky and you get carried a little bit. But like it is it is players like you. I like Cliff and Nicole in season 21. People that are just always going to be pecking away at the majority trying to find a way to either break them up or find a way in somewhere.

[00:34:33] Like, yeah, that's so key. Otherwise, you get seasons like season 16 or whatever, where like that big alliance will just run. Dominate. Yep. Now, blockbuster does kind of shake things up a little bit. I think it does help to some degree the the underdog because power is a little bit more a little bit harder to wield in the game.

[00:35:00] So talk to me about the blockbuster because there's not many winners have experience with the blockbuster. Yeah. The blockbuster is crazy. It ended up being very great towards the beginning of the game because it was great for like players like Amy because, you know, with that week one had they won the blockbuster. You know, it would have been a total different week one. So I think it kind of helped that.

[00:35:30] Oh, like people are just going to dominate their way through the game and all the votes are going to go this way. And this is just how it's going to be because there were people that wanted Zay to stay. But if we knew if he didn't win, you know, this is the way the votes are going to go. So I think it helped with like forming a bigger alliances because it made people feel like, OK, well, we need the numbers. And I think that's what helped. Although Jimmy didn't trust me that much.

[00:35:57] He knew that I was working with people or like kind of friends with people that he did trust. And his head, I was a number like he would always say, well, you're a number like you're a number. And so even though we me and Jimmy, obviously, we're great now. We're great friends. But, you know, those first few weeks, we day one, we really vibed. I don't know if they showed that like we were very, very close. But things took a turn once you become the pariah of the house. Right. People people want to throw your name out because that means they're safe. Right there. They have one more day in the game.

[00:36:25] And so I think for me, the blockbuster kind of helped because people saw me as a vote. And so even though I wasn't in any of the alliances, people felt like, OK, I could vote with them. And so it was able to buy me a little more favor, especially, you know, that I was tying myself to players like Mickey and Morgan. Who did have those on their side. And I think thinking about like week three. Or was that week four? Week three specifically.

[00:36:53] That was the who went home that week, Adrian. So the Adrian vote, I definitely started becoming more on the back burner in a good way where the eyes weren't necessarily on me because I was able to be in with the stronger people who are controlling the votes. Because that was the thing about blockbuster. People were trying to find groups of numbers to kind of submit what they wanted to happen that week. And week three was one of those weeks where, you know, I was able to be on the right side of the vote.

[00:37:22] And that's really mainly because of the blockbusters. Right. Because like we didn't know who necessarily was going to go home. And because I was able to be on the right side of the vote, all the eyes ended up being on the people on the wrong side of the vote because they were like, OK, well, they're they're not on my side. So let's just let's just target them. Like, let's just get them out. So I think that kind of helped in a sense. But otherwise, I'm not going to lie. Once we passed like week five, six, seven, it just got the blockbuster just got to be a pain in the butt.

[00:37:52] You see that and week what nine when I was on the block with Will. And that just was just a terrible situation that wouldn't have happened if the blockbuster didn't exist. I wouldn't have even been on Lauren's initial block if the blockbuster wasn't a thing. But the blockbuster made people second guess who they were going to put up right away because they're like, well, someone can win the veto and then I'm going to have to put another person up. And so then it might not even be worth it. You know, and that was something that played out during Lauren's Lauren's H.O.H. that week, week nine.

[00:38:22] She felt like I didn't want to put Keanu up right away because, you know, if someone comes down, I'll have to put him up anyway. Right. Like that would never happen if there was no blockbuster. She most likely would have just put him up outright because she doesn't have to worry about all the blood on your hands.

[00:38:38] So I think it became made H.O.H. actually become less powerful because it started being like, OK, now you're putting all these people on the block and you're getting all this blood on your hands that it's almost sometimes at some point it's not worth it to win. Well, here's the thing. I think it's I think it's a little bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. I agree. The H.O.H. is definitely less powerful.

[00:39:00] But I think what ended up happening, especially on your season, is that because it was less powerful, a lot of the people who won it were so afraid that it was powerless that they gave up whatever power it actually had by nominating their allies. Because it's still an incredibly powerful position if you use it correctly. But if you're so scared of it that you won't even touch it, then it ends up being all downside and no upside. So, yeah.

[00:39:27] Yeah. So I would say, listen, I know they're going to bring it back. That's great. I think it'd be great if blockbuster ends when Drury happens, though. I will say that. I agree. I think it needs to end a lot sooner. But I mean, yeah, the numbers did well last season, so they'll probably just keep the format, you know, exactly the same, I would think. But, yeah, it just made it a little bit more unpredictable. Oh, here's the thing that it also did.

[00:39:53] You have to lie a lot more because of the blockbuster, because you don't know if that person is coming back. And so I started being very careful with my lies during the blockbuster. I only started lying once the numbers started dwindling down. But before that, I was actually used to it as a way to buy trust and make it come across as I'm an honest person. Like during Riley's eviction week, I straight up told Riley I wasn't going to keep him.

[00:40:22] Right. And Mickey did it. Mickey said, I'm going to keep him. And then when Riley went home, now you have Catherine pissed because Catherine's still in the house. The other side is like, what? Like, what is going on? Why would you say that? So sometimes it can blow up in your face if you tell a bold-faced lie to someone who's aligned with someone closely and they stay in the game after blockbuster.

[00:40:43] So I generally just kind of like stay with the crowd because Mickey sort of like went away from what everyone else was doing to say she would keep Riley. But then on the other side of it, Adrian early in the game was like the one person that was like, no, I'm actually going to tell the truth. And that cost him. So like in general, just whatever the house is doing, you don't have to do it with them.

[00:41:08] But like if everyone's lying to Riley, then be a part of the people lying to Riley. Don't be like the one person that thinks you can stick your head above water because, you know, you're probably going to get caught. But again, there's a situation for everything. You're going to get caught. I had to do that week. I don't remember which week. The week Zach went home. I had to do that with Keanu because I didn't want to tell Keanu was keeping him. But I found out that everybody was.

[00:41:34] Everybody, every single person in the house told Keanu they were keeping him even though they weren't. He was, Keanu was going home had he not won that blockbuster. But I realized that that's what the herd is doing. So I'm like, I just have to tell him I'm going to keep him even though I have no intentions. You know what I'm saying? I'm doing that. And I hated saying that. And I hated lying. It felt icky because he went to confirm like every two hours. You're keeping me right. You're keeping me right. And I said, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like Taryn said, you got to just do what everybody else is doing. Because had I been the one person that said I'm not keeping him, honestly, we saw how that played out.

[00:42:04] Keanu won the blockbuster and he stayed. I would have been his number one target. Like I would have been his target. Same thing with Zay week one. I have to lie to him and say, I'm keeping you, Zay. I'm not keeping Zay. Why would I keep Zay? But if Zay stays, he made it very clear. Anybody who told him that they're not keeping him, he was going to come after. And I don't want that. I don't want that blood. I don't want that beef. Like I don't need that. So yeah, I think it's picking up on what other people are doing and just being a sponge. Kind of like I said earlier, early on is like super important.

[00:42:32] Because if you're a huge outlier, no, you're not going to make it far. Maybe somebody will carry you a little bit further, like you said, maybe because you're a target, but you can only be a target for so long. I think Keanu's game is an outlier because you have to you have to be able to win. You have to win. Comp to will if you want to play that kind of game, which I think is another point to touch on here, which is that like a huge part of your ability to recover from the early stages

[00:43:01] of the game were that you didn't end up actually touching the block most weeks. And that I think comes largely down to like two major factors. One is like easier said than done. You won that veto in the first week, which was incredibly important. It's so bad to be on the block first week and winning your way off the block is such a recovery tool because it means you're not available to vote out and people stop talking about you as though you're somebody that you're going to vote out.

[00:43:29] And number two, for the following couple of weeks, people are like, oh, do I want to put Ashley on the block if she's going to win her way off of it? Absolutely. And then number two, the additional layer of like disincentivizing people to do it is that again, you made those relationships and there were people in the house like Mickey or Rachel or whoever else that would have been like upset if you went up on the block. Yes. And so that's like, you're going to upset people and she might win her way off.

[00:43:59] And also she will be upset. You made a huge deal about it to, you know, to Vince, which is always a tricky thing because it could backfire just make Vince want you out more. But because you won the veto, it worked out really well. They're like, oh, she's going to be really upset if somebody puts her on the block and she might win her way off the block. And so, and you see Will do this as well in your season where he was being used as a pawn, eventually stands up for himself and says, no more of this.

[00:44:27] I'm so done with it. And then they stopped putting him up for a while. Yeah. Sometimes a backbone is necessary. Yeah. I think it's knowing when to stand your ground and knowing when to back down. Um, I think I learned easier said than done. You learn it as you go in the game, obviously like how, how many, how much limits you can push with certain people. Um, like Lauren was someone I knew I could really, I hate to say this emotionally manipulate

[00:44:53] because I knew she was a more caring, sensitive, sweet girl. Like that's her nature. She's just such a kind person. And so unfortunately that week when she was HOH, I had to really kind of put my foot down. Like, I will be mad at you. Like if you put me up, I'm not, you know, we're not working together. Basically, essentially like I'm not, I'm going to be very upset. And like you said, using other people that will be upset is huge because then that leads that person to be kind of scared.

[00:45:22] Like, oh my gosh, am I going to have, you know, okay. If Ashley goes home, all these other people will be mad at me. You can always take it back. You know, like, yeah, I'll be so mad and I won't work with you. And then afterward be like, you know what? I actually, it's kind of chill. Yeah. Just keep me, please. A hundred percent. No, a hundred percent. Like, and I think that that's huge. I think also like kind of being like, I wanted to work with you. Like, I'm very, I'm shocked. I would never have put you up. Like, I would have never thought that.

[00:45:51] Sometimes you kind of got to use that emotion. I know it feels icky, but sometimes emotional manipulation on certain people is kind of the only way that you can go. Sometimes you have people that you know, you can't push too hard because it'll backfire. Like I, with, with, with Mickey, with, with, I mean, even like Will, like I would never come at Will. Like, Will's not that kind of guy. He's going to stand his ground back. Right? Like, so there's certain players. Rachel is another one, like a very strong personality.

[00:46:18] You putting fire with someone like that is just going to make more fire. Right. You saw that happen with Rachel versus Mickey and Morgan. Like that is just going to explode the whole thing. So I think it's knowing people's personalities, really studying people's personalities early on. I think it's huge. I'm not saying it to be a psychologist, but listen, you need to like pay attention to what people, how people are reacting to other people too, when they're in conversations. Like, what are they saying to you? Kind of going to people, how did you feel about that? Right? Like, what did you think about that?

[00:46:48] And I was able to kind of pinpoint early on that Lauren wasn't someone who liked being talked at. She wanted more of a collaborative partnership. Like, obviously that differed with Vince. Vince is like the only person that she liked being, I would say, told more so what to do. But I would say with everybody else, she did not like when people were like very demanding to her. She wanted to feel like she was not necessarily like part of the plan, but kind of like you guys are bouncing ideas off of each other a little bit more.

[00:47:17] And she also wanted to feel like she was important. Like she was important to them because I remember after week one, she was freaking out to me about the votes because she was like, Rachel, I think she told me, Rachel, you know, told me this is what, you know, this is what I need to do. And like, I don't know, that scared me. And so I picked up on those little things like, okay, this is something she doesn't like with someone else. So I'm definitely not going to do that. I'm going to do the opposite. Actually, I'm going to use reverse psychology and make her feel like she made this idea, you know, by herself.

[00:47:45] And sometimes those are kind of things you just have to pick up on, like people's personalities, what they like, what they don't like. I think that's been probably the strongest undercurrent through every single one of these conversations I've had with you four winners has been that all of you have said in one way or another, like how important it is to talk to people, be social, learn as much as you can about them, about how they react to things, about what they care about.

[00:48:15] Because the more information you have, like it's again, you can have as much advice on like what to maybe do in a certain spot, but none of it matters if you don't have the information to know how a person will actually react to it and who you're actually dealing with, what the pieces on the board actually do. Uh, and so that is truly like it seemingly, I think the fundamentals of the game is you just have to get collect as much information as possible, which is part of what makes, I

[00:48:41] think, I think the final point we can talk about with you, I think one of the bigger ones is you were very good at me, um, maintaining certain perceptions of yourself, um, which it can only really be done if you have a good understanding of what other people see in you. Um, while also helping kind of disguise what piece you are on the board, people think you're a pawn, but really you're a rook, right?

[00:49:05] Or like, you know, or a queen, like, uh, and so, uh, you know, being able to sort of mask what you're really capable of is also pretty valuable, but it all, all kind of stems from that understanding that you have of the people around you. So talk to me about, uh, how do you maintain a certain perception of yourself in the house? Yeah. So I would say learn yourself before the game even starts. If you don't know yourself, because some people don't know themselves, some people know what

[00:49:35] they think of themselves, but they don't really know what other people think of them. And I am a studier because I'm a lawyer. So I definitely knew what are my strong points and what are my weaknesses? I'm someone who's very outgoing. I'm someone who's very bubbly, but I'm also someone, if you really talk to me, you start to realize that I am intelligent. Like I obviously there's some, you know, there's some things moving up there, but something I also know in my real life is that when I'm in social scenes that are outside of law and

[00:50:04] outside of what people know me and like, I meet people or when I'm going on dates with people and people are getting to know me something that, especially dating wise, something that people always said was like, Oh my God, I didn't know that you were so intelligent. Until they really got to know me. And so that's something that happens in my real life because I'm so bubbly and I'm so like, like, so I come across the certain way until you get to know me, you speak to me and you're like, okay.

[00:50:29] So I knew that that was going to be something that I wanted to lean on in the game. I never talked too much about my personal life, you know, the things I got going on, you know, all those different things that a lot of people were very open about like week one, week two. Ashley, I think a lot of people really struggle with that. A lot of people go onto reality television. They say, you know, people don't usually know how smart I am and they can't pass up an

[00:50:58] opportunity to prove it to people when they're talking to them. And so that restraint that you showed was really important. Yes. I mean, there are times that people would even like say to my face, basically that I'm, you know, I'm a little, you know, like I remember I was talking to Kelly and she was like, I mean, all you do is do what Rachel like tells you to do. Like, you don't really know what's going on in the game. And I was like, little do you know, like I knew you were going on the, you know what I mean? It's like, and I think that's the thing about a lot of people in life is that they want to

[00:51:27] show and tell they want to do both. They want to come across a certain way. And like, despite what people may think about me, I'm actually very humble. And I think I proved that throughout the game because people would talk down on me throughout the entire game. And I didn't feel the need to be like, well, actually, and I think that's huge. Sometimes people don't even realize that they do it. They do it in real life as well. Like men do it a lot more than women, but no offense to men. Love you men. But men do it a lot more than women.

[00:51:54] And obviously they want to be showy and they want to come across a certain way. I'm rich. I'm this, I'm that. And they do a lot of this. And so I knew that, okay, if someone's talking down on me and me and Will even had this conversation because he was like, I am so shocked. Like, how do you do it? Because he knew my secret right after like what week four or five. And he saw the way people were talking to me and he was like, oh my gosh, if they knew, like, he's like, oh, it's like hard for me to like keep this secret because I was

[00:52:20] fine with people thinking that like, I did not care what other people thought about me because all I cared about was winning $750,000. Like all these people are just puzzle pieces that I have to move, you know, to get to the end and to where I'm trying to go. And so I think you have to keep your mind focused on what is your purpose and what are you there for? Are you there to make best friends? Are you there to prove yourself to be X, Y, and Z, the smartest, the richest, the this, the that, or are you there to win $750,000? And you have to just stay in game mode.

[00:52:50] I never let a personal relationship cloud my judgment. And I think that's something that is super crucial in the game because otherwise you end up like a Mackenzie, right? Where they were like, oh, I just value this friendship. And she lost $750,000, you know? So I think you have to really keep your eye on the prize. I think I always also tried to see things from a neutral perspective. So I would evaluate every single week like, okay, well, I would love for this to happen,

[00:53:18] but what are the benefits to me if that doesn't happen, even though this is what I want? And I think that really became a crucial trait of mine when it was Mickey versus Morgan on the block was like, okay, I want to keep Mickey because I like Mickey more, quite frankly. I like Mickey more than I like Morgan at that point, especially like me and Morgan were not close until later in the game. And then we became very, very close. But those weeks we were not close. I didn't have a personal strong relationship with Morgan. Mickey was like a sister to me.

[00:53:45] I don't want to pick Mickey, but turn that humanization part off for a second and think about what is better for the game. What's going to get me closer to $750,000? This is big brother, not friendship brother, right? Like if these people respect you, they will be friends with you after the show. I think that's what people have to remember. I think people are so worried about like, what are they going to think after the show? And like, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. It's like, that's not going to win you $750,000. It's not. Yeah. You know, you have to be level-headed.

[00:54:16] I think there's two really key points there. One is like, you know, there are obviously some feuds that happen outside of the house that happened inside of the house. But for the most part, like a lot of really close friends were bitter enemies in the game. Like you can absolutely turn on people, betray people, make moves that don't. And it's, you all come out and you're all family because the rest of the world sucks in comparison. They're all attacking you.

[00:54:46] So, you know, don't, you don't have to worry too much about that. Of course, there's a line. Don't cross it. Right. But, but then the other side of that too, that I, that you mentioned that I think is really important is that a lot of people often, I think really overestimate like, like if they think this is what's good for my game, they go, well, this is good for everybody's game then. And they argue it from that standpoint of like, you should really do this because of X, Y, and Z.

[00:55:11] Or they'll make like a token attempt that's like, oh, you know, it's really good for me. It's also good for you because like, you know, then there's another target in the game. And you don't, they don't stop, I think enough to think like, okay, let me genuinely imagine I am this person. What would be best for my game, given my current understanding of where they are? And the more you can get into somebody else's head, again, the more information you have, you can do that.

[00:55:39] But the better case you're going to be able to make to them, and it shouldn't be focused on you. It shouldn't come from your perspective. It should come from theirs because that's going to land a lot better. Absolutely. I 100% agree with everything you just said. And I think that's something you have to get a grip of though, very early in the game. So if you're listening to this podcast and you're going to be on Big Brother, you have to be thinking from that perspective day one, because the game moves so fast. I never would have thought I had an amazing day one.

[00:56:08] Like, you guys don't get to see live feeds. I had a great day one, okay? I was making connection, connection, connection. It was going great for me. And then the shower thing happened at the very end of the night at like 5 a.m. the next day. And then my position completely changed in the game. And you cannot let blow-ups or things like that get you off track in the game. And you're having your head in the game. Because I think a lot of people just kind of, they give up for a period of time. And then they get back in the game.

[00:56:36] You see that happen all the time when someone, you know, maybe they didn't win the veto. And they're like, I'm going home. And they kind of mope for two days. And then maybe the last two days before the eviction, they're like, da-da-da-da-da-da. You have to be like this every single second of the game. Because you never know. If you're not doing this, somebody else is. And now you're way behind. And you never want to be behind on information, on the way the game is moving. I mean, I think even when the Jimmy thing happened and like he was up on the block, it was like, okay.

[00:57:06] I wasn't fully tied in to this thing. And I don't think this is a good move. However, Jimmy ends up winning the blockbuster. Now, even though I know he probably was coming for me maybe before, he's definitely not going to be coming on me now. It's always kind of having, thinking two steps ahead, but also dotting your T's and crossing your eyes. You need to have every single base covered when you're in a game like this that moves so fast. And I think it's, yeah, everything you said, you just nail, Taryn. You should play!

[00:57:36] I think people, you know, there's this concept of like playing too hard too early that I often try to fight against. Because I think that these things get conflated where playing hard doesn't have to mean running around and making a bunch of deals with people. Playing hard can mean having good conversations with as many people as you can. Yes. Building connections, gathering information, trying to figure out where the alliances are.

[00:58:05] You know, like that's also playing hard. And if you're just like chilling by the pool and hanging out with your best friend, that's where things are going to go poorly for you. Yes. Play hard and play smart while you're playing hard. Absolutely. And I think that's something a player like Zach, he was someone, I would say Zach, Morgan, and Mickey, to me, have the strongest. And Vinny. Vinny like fourth.

[00:58:30] But like Zach, Mickey, and Morgan, to me, had some of the stronger relationship building, you know, games in that first, you know, four weeks, in my opinion. Because they were constantly building relationships with people. They constantly were talking to people. And I remember seeing like what Morgan did really well is she would pull. Well, this is what she did well and bad because you could see her doing it, right? So that's obviously not good if everybody sees your game and sees what you're doing.

[00:58:57] But to me, it was also a big pro because she was able to connect with people by kind of like pulling them constantly. Like she was doing that from literally day one. Like the day the pool opened up, the day two, she was on there. She was pulling people. And I think that's something she did really, really good. Her and Zach and Mickey did really well at that. But where Zach fell flat compared to Morgan and Mickey and why they were able to last so much longer is that he got comfortable.

[00:59:21] You can't build the social game and then get super comfortable and chill out and not be in every room and like stop now, right? You got to keep moving forward. And I think that's how Mickey and Morgan were able to outplay Zach and outlast him was that they built those relationships, but then they kept going. They kept the hamster wheel going. Zach got really comfortable and he missed out on huge cues that he was going home. I mean, I even told him to his face, I think you're going home and he didn't believe me. Yeah.

[00:59:50] Every connection is potentially valuable. Don't throw any away because you don't feel like it. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, Ashley, parting thoughts. Any final, one more thing to say. What would you tell somebody? They're like about to go into sequester. What do they need to know? We've covered a lot, but I would just say never count yourself out.

[01:00:16] When your back is against the wall, never count yourself out because you never know what last conversation, what last piece of information that you could tell to completely change someone's mind. And I think a huge thing is, again, analyze. Analyze people. Listen more than you talk, especially towards the beginning of the game. You know, your honesty, your word is currency in that early stage of the game.

[01:00:44] So you should be listening. You should be talking, but you should definitely shouldn't be talking more than you're listening because that means you're giving too much information that somebody can use against you potentially. But yeah, I would say think of ways early on that you can buy social currency in the game because that can outlast throughout the entirety of the game. And end up being your biggest toolbox, you know, your tool in your toolbox towards that second half of the game if you can make it.

[01:01:12] But yeah, never lose sight of what you came there for. Yeah. All right. Well, Ashley, thank you so much for joining me and doing this. It's been very fun. Thank you so much for joining us. Yes, I loved it. Where can people keep up with you? I am on Instagram, Ashley Hollis underscore A-S-H-L-E-Y H-O-L-I-S underscore. That's also my TikTok username. My YouTube is Ashley underscore Hollis. And I'm also on Twitter, but you know what?

[01:01:43] You don't need to follow me on there if you don't want. But that's Ashley Hollis underscore as well. All right. Well, make sure you do all of those things except for, I guess, maybe one of them. And in the meantime, you can check all of our coverage out. If you haven't listened to the other winners, make sure you do that. I will be live, of course, every morning throughout the season talking about things that are happening on the feeds. And of course, I did write a book about the show, Behind the Mirror.

[01:02:11] It doesn't teach you how to win, but it should at least give you some backstory on the history of the show. So you can check that out as well. There you go. That's what we got. Thank you all so much for joining us and see all of you next time.