The Lost Episode of Why X Lost from RHAPCon

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[00:01:02] Welcome to a very special timey-wimey episode of Why Blank Lost. I'm David Bloomberg and we are stealing the time travel table from the Big Brother 28 house to go back a few years to Big Brother 25 to bring you the podcast that would have happened if Matt had not used his power of invincibility on JAG. And the companion to my Doctor Who in this trip to an alternate universe is Mike Bloom.

[00:01:32] This is the deepest of deep pulls, David. I had to do a deep dive into the handful and family style. You had me trolling through what I think is actually a very under-reportedly good part of a Big Brother season, which is the first half of Big Brother 25. So there are worse things I could talk about. But I also feel like the setting that we're in right now, our own little dining room timetable machine, feels like we're at a news desk right now.

[00:01:58] Especially because you started by legitimately like, welcome. It felt like we were kicking off the 6 o'clock news. Yeah, yeah. This is, we are at RHAPCon in Milwaukee. We have a small audience here with us too. Everybody yell! Well! Small but mighty, I love it. Yes, small but mighty. And I believe this is your second appearance on Why Blank Lost.

[00:02:27] The last time I was on, I was realizing this, thinking about it in preparation for this, was a decade ago. Yes. It was the boot of Lucy Huang in Survivor Millennials vs. Gen X. And when we talk about someone getting saved in week four, your future co-host, Jessica Lewis, was saved by an idol play from David Wright. Wow, yes, I had forgotten about that. So now it's become relevant. Now this is an absolutely relevant podcast. That's right. Yeah, it was Rob at the time for people who may not have watched way back then. Rob hosted it with me.

[00:02:55] I say with me, Rob was more the host and would ask, like, how did they do in Rule 1? How did they do in Rule 2? And back then, but Rob was unable to do it for some reason or another. And you stepped right in. So, yeah, this one is, of course, a little different since we're dealing with something that happened three years ago. But if there's one thing people should know about you, and I know you said you were researching and trolling and all that, but... I was trolling. Yeah. Well, one thing is you're a troll.

[00:03:25] Second thing is you have an incredible memory. Thank you. Thank you. I mean, in this very respective field. Yes. I can't necessarily remember things like loved ones' birthdays or, you know, to take out the trash. But, like, I can tell you the fourth food from Survivor Palau if you really need to. So I'm very happy that I found this particular niche. And, yeah, we get to go back all the way to what? Because this released around August because of the Rider Strikes. It's probably around, what, September? We're approaching the three-year anniversary if we haven't already.

[00:03:54] Yeah, it's right around the three-year anniversary, almost exactly here. But, yeah, you have a memory. I have notes. There we go. You know, and that's where really this podcast started from because I have talked before about how I had written up almost everything for a Why Jag Lost podcast before the show because we were so sure that he was going to go and there was no way Matt would use his power.

[00:04:23] And, yeah. Can we set the stage a little bit here? Because, again, there might be some uninitiated or those who may not remember. So in week four of Big Brother 25, I think this was, they went through a bunch of different universes, really predicting the multiverse saga that is now quickly flamed down in pop culture. They were in the superhero universe that week, and four people were selected by America to compete in a challenge for the power of invincibility, I think it might have been. Yes, it was the comic verse. Yeah, the comic verse.

[00:04:53] We have to use the appropriate name. I apologize for that. So it was Sree, of course. It was Corey Wernberger drafting off that survivor, Goodwill. It was Jag. I forgot about that. Jag could have theoretically gotten this power, and it was Matt Klotz who would obviously play a very large role in Jag's success in the game. And so Matt's power that he won was that he was able to save, was it one of the next two or three evictions? Two, including that one. That was happening then.

[00:05:19] So it was either right then or the next one after they had been evicted. It didn't prevent them from being evicted. They still get voted out, but then they wouldn't actually leave. So for all intents and purposes, though, with the power not in play, Jag and Blue were sitting on the block. Jag was voted out. Unanimous, we stop, you've heard that before. We're a unanimous vote on Big Brother 25. But then, wah, wah, wah, message from the comic verse, the power was used, and Jag was still in the game. Technically, he didn't walk out through the front door.

[00:05:49] Technically voted out, but for all intents and purposes, still in the game, and he would still be in the game for many, many more days. Yes. And so in this case, and I'll have a little bit more to say about how we got to this point. But yeah, listeners encouraged me to bring this back when I've mentioned it before, and I thought, RHAPCon, perfect opportunity. There we go.

[00:06:09] Now, this one is obviously a special case, but we will still treat his alternate universe loss the same as we would for anyone else. Looking at how he played compared to a set of guiding rules. You've all heard this. That I originally wrote back in 2004 and have modified ever since. Anyone who does not know that and is watching this podcast, welcome. I don't know why you picked this one to join in on, but welcome.

[00:06:35] We will analyze him using what we saw at the time on TV, live feeds and other information. And of course, if you want the most up-to-date rules, you can go to robhiswebsite.com slash bigbrotherrules. It's a really interesting sliding doors moment for multiple reasons across multiple shows, because obviously Jag will go on, spoiler alert, to win Big Brother 25. But then him and his brother Jazz will also get the call to appear on the Amazing Race 38, which they also won.

[00:07:05] And I don't know if necessarily if Jag would have still gotten the call for that Amazing Race season. But in a different universe, David, that maybe we're living in right now for the sake of this podcast, this man is not even a one-time or two-time winner of reality TV. Right. I was thinking about that. I was talking to someone about that yesterday, like how it changes so much. Not just, you know, Matt's one move here changes like a whole other show without a whole other show. Yeah, very, very true. We don't have a comp record that gets broken as well the way Jag does. Yeah.

[00:07:33] So getting back to more of like how this all came to be, just as a reminder, nowadays, of course, we know the Big Brother Blockbuster makes it impossible to know who is going until the night of. Because they've got three. You never know who's going to win it. And this was the last season before the blockbuster came into fruition. And so now I can't prepare all my notes ahead of time.

[00:07:58] But back then, sometimes me and my co-host at the time, Ovi Kabir, would do that because we have a quick turnaround. Normally the eviction is Thursday. We record on Friday when we can. And so if we can get the notes done ahead of time, hey, that is great. But in this case, it was so clear that Jag was going. There was no universe that could happen where he was not going.

[00:08:24] And what we saw in the live feeds indicated that Matt was not going to use it. We they hid from us. Production actively hid from us that Sari and Matt had decided they were going to use it. And of course, we didn't know that at the time. So I pre-wrote almost a whole podcast. And then I was like, well, that's OK.

[00:08:49] Because certainly as poorly as Jag was playing, it'll be used next week or the week after. And then Jag just kept staying around week after week. And so it yeah, it just it never got used. And then, of course, once he won, a lot of it wasn't relevant anymore. So there was there was really no point in discussing it at that point. And it's just been sitting on my computer ever since.

[00:09:16] I mean, you say it's not relevant anymore, but I do feel like in the Big Brother discourse, there is a lot of commentary about the fact that Chris Underwood style almost. This is a guy who had formerly been evicted, was saved by a power. Does that impact, in your opinion, the way you view Jag even as an overall player? We're talking specifically about the first month of his Big Brother career. But does that give you any sort of lens over the way you view him as a player of the game? I mean, yeah, I never viewed him as a genius. You know, he was very comp based.

[00:09:46] We know that. So I mean, I've met him, you know, and he seems like he's a nice guy. Incredibly nice guy. But, you know, nice people don't always do well at Big Brother, as you know, we may have seen this week on Big Brother.

[00:10:03] So, yeah, it's, I think that, I think it not only gives me pause about him, but, and I may have been planning to talk about this later, but it gives me thoughts about other people who are voted out early, both on Survivor and Big Brother. Yeah. You could have people who, if they, if one thing had changed for them. Yeah. If one thing had been different, they could have gone on to win. Yeah.

[00:10:32] I mean, that's the thing I talked about a little bit in the Puya and Leona lounge that was recorded during this week as well. Yeah, that's the, the simultaneously heartening yet disheartening thing about talking with reality TV contestants is that people, for the most part, are expressly cast on these shows with the intention to win.

[00:10:51] And so when you talk with them and they're not necessarily digested through the lens of an editor or even a live feed, you realize like, oh yeah, you have a personality and a certain set of skills most of the time to, in a different world, had some different decisions occurred. You could have been the winner. Right. You could have been a multi-time champion as well. And so this is a great example, right? And we're talking about this as well.

[00:11:14] You know, I'm sure if, and when this conversation comes up about someone like D who got saved by power on big brother 28, this will be another thing. You're reading off my notes here. Oh, I listen. Well, let's, let's get into it. Shall we? Yeah. Yeah. So sitting here in 2026, we know what happened with Jag in big brother 25, but in late August of 2023, as we watched the live feeds in the show, things looked bleak for him.

[00:11:43] Based on the information we had, most of us were so sure that Jag was headed out the door, but then he didn't. Matt saved him and it became a brand new game. The podcast notes, as I mentioned that I wrote up at the time have been sitting on my computer since then, but a big brother season focused on time travel was the perfect opportunity to go back and take a look at the alternate universe. At RHAP, we know big brother and we know why Jag would have lost. I love that would. Yes.

[00:12:14] All right. Well, the first and most important rule is of course to scheme and plot. And I truly believe Jag knew how important this is, but knowing and doing two very different things. And Jag exemplified that perfectly at the time he came in, he made a final two deal right off the bat with Riley. Then he saw Riley was making deals with lots of other people. So he connected with blue as well, eventually making a final two with her. And of course he was a member of the handful or family style or whatever else was going on with that. Yeah.

[00:12:43] And to clarify, I believe the handful was the three that you had mentioned, Jag, Riley, blue. And then I think it was Cameron and Matt, I want to say. And then family style, they added three more to the hand, which was Corey, America and Jared, which for various reasons is hilarious in retrospect. Yes. Yes. So he tried to create, as you described, like an onion alliance. Which makes sense because Riley was the first HOH.

[00:13:09] And that's, again, while it isn't necessarily shown nowadays on Big Brother, that's what you should ideally do in that situation. You mean you're not supposed to throw it and let other people have power the whole game? Or you're not supposed to win power and then make a bunch of promises, then go back on them or walk down the stairs one morning and call somebody out in a very public gesture. I love it. Change the game. But we're maybe veering back towards it with what D was able to do. Yes. Now, this would all indicate he was ready to play strategically on paper.

[00:13:38] But as Robert Burns said, the best laid plans of mice and men often go awry. He had plans, but then reality intervened. As he said, the alliances I've been a part of have just sort of imploded. So that leads me to another quote, as Albert Einstein said. In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Jag learned that the hard way. Yeah. I mean, Riley had a swift downfall.

[00:14:04] The first month of Big Brother 25 is sort of punctuated by these swift downfalls where towards the end of the first week, actually, we had seen a rather divided house where, again, I mentioned family style. And there were 16 players left at the time, would be 15 shortly. And then basically everyone else in the house was in an alliance called the Professors. And so it really was going to be a showdown between these two groups. And so when Heisum, who was in the Professors, won HOH, he went after Riley.

[00:14:32] And I think that's one big thing we're going to talk about is that as much as Jag was in a safe place the first week of the game, he was not in a safe place the other three weeks of the game. Right. Yeah, he was getting knocked around those weeks there. And he thought he had found his home in the Seven Deadly Sins Alliance. Oh, God, I forgot about that. Yes. And if Cameron hadn't won HOH, that might have been good for at least a week or two. But Blue was in that alliance too.

[00:14:57] And even if it had been real or for real, for real, which wasn't real anymore, you know, then anyway, anyway, I've gotten my reels have confused me here. Seven Deadly Sins remind me. So this was the core three of the Big Brother prejury, which was Sari, Felicia and Izzy, along with Matt, Jag and Blue. And then there was one other person, obviously, given the number that I forget about.

[00:15:25] But yeah, I'm forgetting who the other person was. It might have been Jared. They might have had Jared in there. I have to look it up. Probably. He was in everything with them, I think. Yeah. So but yeah, Jag seemed to think that this alliance would save him instead of Blue. And for a little while, it looked like they might. But that wasn't because of anything he did. He felt that Cameron's mind was made up.

[00:15:50] So like when Cameron won HOH, he didn't even try to avoid getting nominated. He didn't give any reasons he should stay. He could have told Cameron about, oh, look at these multiple alliances that Sari and company are in. But I mean, because he knew about the Legend 25 alliance that Cam and Red were in, which was a fake alliance that Sari had set up just to keep them in line. But he didn't use that information to try to protect himself.

[00:16:20] He even acknowledged that he didn't fight for himself when Cam called him into the HOH room. Now, this was three years ago. Certainly, there's no way that would ever happen today where someone just doesn't fight to try to avoid nomination or or stop one of their close allies from getting nominated. That would never happen today. Especially someone who watched season 25 so closely. They certainly would never because, yeah, this should also be a little bit of a reminder as well. So, again, I mentioned that Cameron was in this this handful short-lived alliance.

[00:16:50] Cameron was one of the first to turn on the alliance as far back as week one. He was already reporting the doings, even though he didn't know that Jared was actually also reporting the doings because he's Sari's son. And so Cameron had eyes on Jag. Propel Fitness Water with Gatorade electrolytes, zero sugar and vitamins. Propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self. What propels you?

[00:17:19] Propel with Gatorade electrolytes. And it should be mentioned that Jag was put up in week three as well by Felicia as a pawn. He won the veto, but he was a pawn in this big plan to backdoor heist him because everyone was turning on their allies at that point. Only a few weeks in. And so, yeah, Cameron, when he won that pressure cooker, the return of the pressure cooker, he was ready to put Jag through a big pressure cooker as well. And not only put him on the block, but formally target him as well. Yes. Yes.

[00:17:45] So then after the veto, things were looking a little iffy because Red was pushing to vote out Izzy instead. Yes, because Red had the veto. He wanted to veto someone off the block and put Izzy up. Right. But Jag knew if he pushed Red to veto himself off the block, Cameron would indeed likely nominate Izzy. And so then he talked to Izzy and Matt and then promised, oh, well, I won't use your name when I'm talking to them.

[00:18:15] I don't want to get you in trouble, which admirable loyalty, but you undercut your own position. You can't just give away your game and say, well, you know, since those are nice people, I'll just I won't mention them. And so he did talk to Red, at least. He said he would never ask him to do anything that he doesn't want to do. And so I'm not going to ask you to use the veto on him. And I'm like, what? You're not going to ask him to use the veto on you?

[00:18:46] This is big brother. You don't want something to do, someone to do anything that they don't want to do? Just let them make up their own mind? And I it was frustrating at the time. It goes back to part of what we were talking about. Jack was not good. Jack was not a good player at this point. And he continued to Red that I won't throw out promises, but if Red can find a way that this can benefit your game to keep me.

[00:19:13] And again, I was like, yeah, yeah, you definitely don't want to make promises that you don't plan on keeping in big brother. No one no one would ever do that. Infamously not bounced inside the wall that the big brother has. Right. And of course, don't tell them how you can help their game. Let them make up their own mind on that, too. So it was it was a stunning lack of gameplay. But, you know, like I said earlier, he told Sari, Izzy and Matt, I will not say anything that will hurt this team.

[00:19:39] It's like, OK, go team as you go out the door. Yeah, I mean, he was loyal to the seven deadly sins. And to be fair to Jack, I mean, his initial alliance had basically collapsed at this point. This was a guy that was looking for a home. And so I think it does make sense that maybe he steers into the curve a little bit. Now, listen, is it self-destructive? One hundred and fifty percent.

[00:20:03] But I think if he felt so comfortable with this group and so loyal to them that he's like, I need to be protected. And I guess, again, it was not his own doing. He does end up getting saved by said ally. Yeah, it ends up working to his favor. But it was, you know, kind of this thing where he would have been evicted. But it might not have been 10-0. There might have been a sprinkling of. Well, that's not. The Big Brother's 25. It would have been 10. Well, yeah. 15-0. They had five more votes.

[00:20:31] Now, another aspect of this rule that you already mentioned is he couldn't seem to figure out how all the information kept getting to the other side. And it's like just sit and think for a little while. How does this happen over and over again? He should have picked up first on Cameron, then on Jared being a mole and not being with him. He, you know, and then he wasn't saved from nomination by Jared. Info kept leaking to the other side.

[00:20:59] But even when he eventually did figure out that it was Jared, he still didn't see what was right in front of him regarding Jared being super tight with Ceree, Izzy, and Felicia. And at one point, he actually complained to Izzy about Jared playing a sneaky game and leaking information. I mean, it's a true statement, but yeah, maybe not the right person to be saying it to. Yeah.

[00:21:24] So, yeah, he did realize that Ceree, Izzy, and Felicia were aligned with everyone but America. And, but he just couldn't do anything about it. He wouldn't do anything about it. Melissa said on the Stockwatch roundtable that week. Oh, you are too. Okay. I was going to say, you're either doing a deep dive or this is a reflective. These are my notes from the time. Okay, go, go, go. So, yeah. So, Melissa said, Jag, he just could not connect the dots. Yeah.

[00:21:52] I mean, I think that, I wouldn't even call this passivity. I guess it is a form of passivity in that it seems like there is all this information that's being presented to him. And he was in a vulnerable position and he chose to not weaponize this information. And I think that's what's so interesting about this exercise in general. I'm sure we'll loop back to the point is like, then the Jag after this becomes a man of activity.

[00:22:14] Not only from a physical activity perspective, but like he's then utilizing that power to make decisions, to be able to then become his own sort of arbiter of information. And so it's a thing where he's sort of learning the lesson the hard way here that even though these things are staring him in the face, I think there is such a mask right now of, but I feel, even though I'm sketched out by Jared, like I feel good about this seven that I don't necessarily see the train that's coming for me on the track right now.

[00:22:43] Yeah. I mean, you know, to relate this to the eviction that we just had on Big Brother 28, if someone had a power that could have saved, well, I was going to say spoiler alert, but by now I'm sure everybody has, especially since this is going out at least a few days after we record it. But, you know, by, if Mallory had a power that could have saved her, would she have altered her behavior? Would she have started trying harder? Would she have started actually thinking ahead, putting things into action?

[00:23:11] Yeah. And I, you know, I would like to think the answer is yes to that, but she didn't get this special bonus take like he did. Yeah. I mean, I think it could really go in two different directions if you know, ha ha suckers, I'm guaranteed to survive until the next week, because then it's sort of like an HOH position or a veto position where it's like, okay, I'm in locked and safe. You know, I'm going to be around next week. So let's work something out because I can still win power.

[00:23:36] You know, these other people, they might be out the door. On the other hand, it might be something where you're like, I don't want to poke my head back out. You know, like I was the topic du jour. Now I'm out. Like, let me make sure that I can just, I'm good for the week. I can sit back. I'm safe. I could see the approach from, from a couple of different perspectives, but I think it depends on how you view your own position in the house. If you feel like you are desperate, like there was a reason why you were the target here and it's more of a consensus thing, then yeah, absolutely shake shit up.

[00:24:06] Make deals knowing that you're safe for the next few days. If you feel like this was one particular case as Jag did here of like, well, Cameron's not in my alliance. He was, but he's not anymore. So it makes sense why he targeted me. Then maybe he felt like, oh, you know, I'll survive. And then like maybe Jared wins another HOH or Izzy wins an HOH and I'm fine. It was just this particular week. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, we can move on to the second rule, which says not to scheme and plot too much and to keep your scheming secret.

[00:24:33] And I mentioned in the first rule, how Jag complained to Izzy about Jared. Well, he ended up accidentally getting Corey and America in trouble instead of Jared, which got back to Corey and turned him against Jack. So Corey had already been worried about Jag and conversations that America had had with him and told Izzy he wanted Jag gone because he kept lying and telling other people about their conversations.

[00:24:57] With Corey and America planning to vote Jag out, it meant Jag needed the full support of the seven deadly sins alliance, including Jared, who would have to vote out his showmance blue. That was not happening. No, definitely not. I'm trying to remember how palpable that showmance was. We didn't go full duvet behaviors at that point.

[00:25:23] I mean, in the episode leading up to this was when he told Blue that his mother was on the show. Well, he had a relationship with someone on the show. Yes. He tried to suggest Felicia, but then Blue did a diary room saying he believed it was Sari. But then later, as the season went on, she would revert away from Sari. To the point where, yes, Sari told Blue on the way out that it was happening.

[00:25:50] I wouldn't say it was a complete surprise, but it wasn't a complete non-surprise at the same time. Right, right. So they were, at least in Jared's mind, getting pretty close and pretty obvious. They, you know, at least, I think at least Sari obviously knew. Oh, and also, yes, to answer this, this was the same week as the great condom hunt. God, I remember where I was. Yes. All the way back in 2023 for the great condom hunt. Yeah, because I'm trying to do the math here.

[00:26:17] So there were 14 people left. I'm trying to say Luke, Kirsten, Riley, Heisman. So there were 13 people left. So it was 10 people voting. So we would have had to have at least five and the HOH. He wasn't getting the HOH. He was Cameron's target. So he would need six, which was, as you mentioned, well, you could say the rest of the seven deadly sins, but Blue was up on the block against him too. Right. I thought that if he got those five, he was okay. I don't know. Did Cameron shift his target to Blue by the end of the week? Do you remember? No, no, he did not.

[00:26:47] He never shifted his target. So at least Sari believed if she had all of the seven deadly sins that it would work that way. So, but yes, for those who don't remember the great condom hunt, Izzy went to, as a joke, throw some condoms in the room for Corey in America because they were, they were really just, they weren't doing anything. They were just on the hammock bed, but she saw them pull the covers over their heads when she walked in.

[00:27:16] So she thought, oh, this would be a funny prank, but nobody could find the condoms. And so Felicia looked for them everywhere and they started questioning Jared and Blue about them. So yes, there was knowledge of the two of them being together. Definitely. I love that you're the one who brings this up, by the way. I made no mention of this. This was a Bloomberg original. Well, it was your question about how close they were. The answer is how close they were. A little layer of latex between them. Yes. Yeah.

[00:27:49] So, so yeah, you know, Sheree tried to get Jared to vote out Blue and Jared was like, I'm going to play my own game. And I need to, yeah, I need to show that I'm a great player like her. And it's like, this has nothing to do with great play. This has to do with other types of play. Let's be honest here. I mean, maybe the one after three play, you know.

[00:28:18] Again, he's the one who said it, not me. I mean, I do think that, you know, Blue does seem like a close ally of his from just a, you know, even just a purely strategic perspective. And it is interesting because, you know, Jag later on will be one of the people to help flip the house against him as well. So again, he sort of had the right idea, even if it wasn't necessarily for the most platonic reasons. Yeah. Uh, so to add to these problems, Jag at one point told others he was planning to target red

[00:28:46] and he hadn't worked with Cameron since week one. I think you had mentioned. So it was pretty obvious where his allegiance was in the game. It wasn't going to be able to hide it. He was not keeping it secret by any means. No, I don't necessarily think so. And I mean, again, it was from his perspective. They're not in my alliance. Red also didn't use the veto on me, despite me saying it's okay if you don't. Uh, so he even making his target public, I don't think it necessarily hurt anything, but it more so I think exemplified the headspace he was in,

[00:29:15] which is like, I've got the seven deadly sins and I'm going after everyone who's not in there. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. We can go to the third rule, which talks about the need to be flexible. And I think it's pretty clear after covering one and two, he was not great at being flexible. Uh, that was a large part of the reason he couldn't adjust when things didn't go according to plan, as we mentioned at the beginning of rule one. And like you just said, he had his group. He was going to, for everybody outside of that group,

[00:29:42] but in a house where everyone was in multiple alliances, he was in that one. Yeah. You know, that, that was it. And he was on the block against another member of that same alliance. He could have been, he should have been gathering other allies, but it wasn't happening. Uh, for example, America told Izzy that she liked Jag as a person and she tried to game with him, but he never gave her anything.

[00:30:09] And he was still talking about Riley weeks after she was gone. Yeah. I mean, that was a seismic relationship for him. Ironically, I don't think he was in Riley's promise. I'm pretty sure that was the Sari, uh, there was Sari Matt alliance, but it was definitely felt on his perspective. And again, I, I get it. He had this entire architectural plan. You know, it's, it's like how you, you make these big dinner plans. Then all of a sudden the restaurant's not available for the evening. Some people are able to pivot, go down to the Chinese restaurant, down the street.

[00:30:37] Others are like, Oh God, Oh, I was really feeling Italian. I like, can I make the lasagna at home? Uh, and it's like, yeah, you can open up your culinary and strategic tastes, uh, a little bit, especially as you mentioned in a house that at the time, yes, while I was saying there were these sort of divisions, he was going getting more and more sort of like slippery by the day, by the week. You were just talking and alluding to the fact that there was at this point, Sari, Izzy,

[00:31:04] and Felicia in the center point of three different alliances that pretty much cover nearly everyone in the house, which was a change from two weeks ago when I said there was a clear division eight and eight in the house. And so this was something that was consistently changing. And I think Jag at this point was more of a concept than a variable. Yes. Yes. So we could go to the fourth rule, which tells players not to let their emotions control them. I don't think Jag really had a problem here at lot, at least not in the usual sense. It does.

[00:31:32] I mean, but I would say going back to the Riley of it all might just be that if he felt sort of anchored in that, and again, this was something that he got really close with, you know, I believe if you mentioned that final two that I think she might've been his number one ally for the first couple of weeks of the game. And there might've been some, some still like emotional pain for that in losing her. But no, I would certainly not say that his emotions really, even after he gets saved ever dictate his game necessarily. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:31:58] I mean, in the first rule, we did discuss how he wouldn't try to help himself at the expense of his alliance. I would classify that as a strategic error. It could be attributed to an emotional reason as well. But I, I think it was mostly strategic that was there. Yeah. I would imagine. So I think, again, he's a very kind man and generous man, but I don't think he's necessarily speaking out of his, his charitability to be like, I'm not going to say names. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, and we can quickly move on to the fifth rule, which says players need to pretend to be nice and play the social game.

[00:32:28] I think it's safe to say Jag was fine here. Numerous times other players would say things like I like Jag, but, and then go on to discuss strategic or over scheming issues that we already covered. They weren't, they weren't voting him out because they disliked him. They were voting him out in spite of liking him. I think. And I think that Shannon Gus says all the time, right? The social game is accruing the capital. The strategic game is expending and investing the capital.

[00:32:53] And I think Jag just, despite this guy, you know, coming from a background where he does have so many great businesses, he was not able to invest properly, where it seemed like everyone liked him, but I don't think he was necessarily brokering a lot. Like you talked about that America quote where like he could have easily curtailed or, you know, prevail. That's something with her. And she, he chose not to do so to not build upon the surface level interactions that they were having. And that's always a tough thing to do. Right. Like I imagine, cause I've never played any of these things.

[00:33:22] It must be tough to like get to know someone as a person and then find that inevitable point in the conversation where you're like, it's like, you want to, you want to do something with this? Like it's, it's a, it's a weird transition, even though everyone knows that you're playing a game, it's still an awkward thing to manage, especially in the first month of the game. And I imagine from Jag, again, it's, it's more passivity than it is, uh, you know, necessarily misplayed. It's that idea of like, he was more reliable to sit back, have these chats and feel good

[00:33:49] with a specific six people, not necessarily thinking about, okay, I also, I like these others. Let me try to bring them into something. Yeah. Yeah. That took me to a survivor. Uh, you know, do you want to play? Oh, in the sand. Yeah. Exactly. Perfect. Uh, example there of, oh yeah, you have to ask in a certain way in order to get them to get them to realize what you're talking about. Especially early on when you don't know how people should be approached. Everyone has different reactions to the same idea.

[00:34:17] And I think it takes a little while for you to figure out the right formula of tone, timbre, location, content, et cetera, to make sure it's a winning pitch. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, the sixth rule warns against being too much of a threat. Now at the time it did not maybe seem like he was really a threat given everything else we discussed about him and his position in the game, but people did feel that way about

[00:34:42] him when Cameron won HOH, he said he used to be in the handful with Jag and Blue and now they are quote, two very dangerous loose ends. Makes it sound like it's, you know, they're going to turn him in for murder or something. I mean, yeah. Cameron had definitely had a lot of that mercenary language, even at, at this point, because it should be mentioned that Jag didn't win the previous veto, which I'm trying to remember. I know he was in the chicken suit. I think it was like a race back and forth type of thing. If I'm going to be Clark, he was in the chicken suit till, yeah, till, till just before this.

[00:35:12] And it is, this was shockingly a competition that Jag lost. Uh, and it was the pressure cooker. This was the return of the competition and Cameron proved to be a force, uh, so much so that Matt and Jag knew they had needed to nip him in the button suit rather than later. And that he lasted what? Like 11, almost 12 hours. I think Jag lasted like two. I believe Jag dozed off basically. Yeah. Jag fell asleep standing up in the chicken. I'm pretty sure he was like third or fourth out in this surprisingly. So given again, he's going to go on and break a fricking big brother record. Right. Right.

[00:35:42] Uh, yeah. Cameron also said he was always a threat. He further told the legend 25 Alliance that Jag was public enemy number one. And yeah, he had won that previous veto. And you know, when several members of the seven deadly sins discussed whether or not to try to keep him a major point was he can fight for us in comps. Yeah. Uh, it also should be mentioned this point. This is week four. The competition winner so far were Riley who's gone. Heism who is gone.

[00:36:13] Felicia who's still in the house and now Cameron in red. So there really was like a small pool of people who had actually won competitions prior that would be these types of targets. Right. Yes. And you know, now we, we, at least I do. I mock people when they say, Oh, this person there, they're a comp beast. And it's like, they, they won one competition so far. What do you mean? They're companies, but it, you know, it's been going on for a long, you win one and you look like you could have done well. And other, Oh, they're a comp beast.

[00:36:40] Uh, and you know, lots of people in the house were saying it. Jared said people were scared of Jag. Corey called him a threat. Red said Jag is a big competitor. Jag himself told us. It's clear that red and cam see me as a threat in this game. And this was especially true for everyone when they were comparing him to the other nominee who was blue and she was not a comp. Come on. They wouldn't vote out such a big threat of this game, right?

[00:37:07] I'm butchering the quote right now, but cut to Julie Chen Mumez with a bob and just a face crack look to her. Yeah. So, so I think it's safe, safe to say people definitely thought of him as a threat. But perhaps before we, the audience really saw it, we didn't, we didn't realize what they were going to see. There was a very limited resume, but I think they were able to, to see their own problem ahead of them. That would become unfortunately more or less preventable as the season went along. Yes.

[00:37:36] So the seventh rule says to trust almost nobody. And here we have at least a triple whammy. He trusted Cameron early on and was even telling Riley how good he felt about Cameron. But then Cameron spilling the beans to the other side was at that time what screwed them. At the same time, as you mentioned earlier, Jared spilling every bean. Even after Cameron was outed, Jared continued to play the double agent and was hidden enough

[00:38:03] that a couple of times Jag even talked to him about the information being leaked to the other side. He, he really didn't learn from the Cameron situation or from the ongoing direct line to Sari for everything they discussed. And even worse, when most of seven deadly sins wanted to save Jag, Jared rebelled because he didn't want to lose his showman's blue, like we said, and he got all pissy about it.

[00:38:29] So this was the man that Jag trusted, but nope, nope, not, not going to save him. I, I understand him not wanting to lose her, but like I said earlier, him trying to pretend it was for strategic reasons was, was rather funny. Should Jag have showman's Jared? Is that the solution? I think he was already taken at that point. So I mean, I don't know. She could have given it a try. He could have, he could have. It was worth the, worth the try. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:38:56] Well, and then finally he misread Izzy completely in that situation we covered in the second rule regarding him ratting out Jared. As we said, it ended up bouncing back on Corey to the point that he, he should have been able to see that Izzy was not going to turn on Jared so easily. So that once, you know, it's just all of this was wrapped up and he kept trusting people who were all feeding information to each other. It got even funnier later on.

[00:39:26] Well, kind of in the, I think it was right after, no, it was leading up to the power leading up to, we didn't see it till the episode after. Yes. But leading up to the power when Sari told Jag he was going to be okay and said, don't tell anyone about this. And then I'm just trying to get it all right.

[00:39:50] I can't remember if Matt told him to, but then Sari told Jared he was, that Jag would be okay, but don't tell anyone. And then Jared decided he was going to, again, try to play his own game and go in and tell Jag, don't tell anyone, but you're going to be okay. And Jag's like, but I thought Matt had only told Sari. So then he went back to Sari and said, what's going on with Jared? How does he know?

[00:40:19] And then Sari went back to Jared and then Jared went back to Jag and was like, did you tell someone what I told you? And he asked him like multiple, multiple times until Jag finally admitted it. It's just this whole ridiculous, knotted, twisted thing. And it's like, if any one of you could have held your tongue. Yeah. Propel Fitness Water with Gatorade electrolytes, zero sugar and vitamins.

[00:40:47] Propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self. What propels you? Propel with Gatorade electrolytes. This episode is brought to you by ChatGPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons Podcast. Have you guys heard about ChatGPT work? It's the new way to use ChatGPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give ChatGPT work access to your apps and files,

[00:41:15] and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting work mode available on Plus and Pro Plans. Yeah. What's also interesting is that, again, Jag will certainly gain a lot of good moves and gameplay over the course of the season. It's not an immediate switch after he's saved because I was just thinking about this. And it's something that Taron has brought up well as well in light of recent events where

[00:41:44] I forget who won HOH the next week, but Jag like offers to go up on the block after just coming back. And there was a world where had they not decided to, you know, break up the whole Cameron and Red thing, Jag could have gone right out the door one week after his execution was staved off. Well, and that's one reason I was like, okay, well, you know, I've got these notes. It'll just, I'll just add to them for the next week. And then, you know, it just never came about.

[00:42:11] Um, but with that, it is actually about time to wrap things up. So, um, I don't know. Do you have any additional thoughts before we do, or what are your final thoughts about Jag here? Well, first off, I'll correct my record here. So it was Jared who won the next week. Cause I was remembering this is the period when it was Cameron, Jared, Cameron, Jared, when we were living in that sort of a nether region type of studying. This is, is so interesting, David, not just in a method of, you know, being able to, to act upon something that's been three years in the making.

[00:42:41] But again, I, I, as you mentioned before, I think it speaks to this, this idea that almost never exists in any of these social strategy games, which is as much as I in general don't like the non eliminations or like second chance type of things. I generally like the, when you're out, you're out mentality. I think there is something interesting about having a near death experience in one of these

[00:43:07] games and then trying to subsequently figure out what did I do wrong? Let me do my own YX loss podcast. And how can I improve upon that? And again, not to say that Jag immediately took the lessons that he learned and said, great, but I do feel like he got a little more locked in. I think especially him and Matt began to become a little bit more of the middle men before they became the minute men. And then before we knew it a few weeks later, when the house flips entirely and this trio at

[00:43:35] the center of it is now on the ropes, Jag and Matt were pivotally a part of that. And it also connects back to, you know, Jared being caught with his pants down in more ways than one, right? That infamous debate that him and Corey got into in the bedroom where Jared is very stallions are all exposed. I wonder if that connects back to again, Jag's mistrustment, not even a word in, this guy. I also realized this is the veto competition that red wins where they had to spell out the word golden and Jared spelled dongle, I think.

[00:44:06] So I, it's so interesting to look at. Yes. Everything leading up to this was a little cataclysmic. It was a combination of some bad stuff that was done to him in the first couple of weeks and him not necessarily doing good stuff subsequently in the other couple of weeks, but then to also look at, all right, you made all these blunders and you were saved by the grace of your closest ally who was able to navigate a ball to the end of the course. What are you going to do with that? Right. And this is a really interesting story because I feel like, again, I think about him.

[00:44:36] I think about Chris Underwood. I can't think of many other people who were directly saved from elimination by something and then went on to win the game. Almost everyone falls short once again. And Jag was able to prove through a variety of different reasons that the second chance was the one that needed to be taken. Yeah. Yeah. Of course, Chris Underwood got a much different why Chris won because we were so angry at the fact that, uh, at the fact that he was even in. The theme is not on trial day. Oh, it was, it was, and they were found guilty.

[00:45:05] Uh, was Bowie Jane the judge? Yeah. All right. She might've been the defense lawyer. I'm not sure. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. Jag was voted out unanimously. Once it was clear that Ceri wouldn't get Jared to flip, that was the end of it. Of course, we know now that after the vote, there was a message from the comic verse. Red read it to everyone. Red was on Reddit? Yeah. Yeah. The BB power of invincibility has been activated.

[00:45:34] That means the house guest you just voted out is now invincible and cannot be evicted. Little did everyone know that didn't only mean on that night, it literally meant he could not be evicted ever. Yeah. So OP, right? That it got him like an additional 10 weeks in the game. I don't know what they were thinking about that. Yeah, it was, it was, yeah, it was, it was a bit much, wasn't it? Uh, now Jack did learn some things about playing big brother after this point. Eventually it took him some time.

[00:46:03] And of course he had the luxury because he became the comp piece that people worried he would be. Uh, as I said, in the eventual why Jag one podcast, most of what we discussed here became irrelevant when it came to why he won, because he turned much of it around and he fixed it, but he was lucky to have that luxury. One that most people don't get. We talked about that. Maybe other players who went out early could have come back to win in various games if they

[00:46:32] had gotten a similar chance, because when Jag would have been evicted, he was not playing particularly well at all. But we've been talking about everything that happened prior to that point, because heading into that live eviction, the information we had, as I said, was strongly telling us Matt would not use the power on Jag. And until a few hours before the vote, Jag had no idea that he should have been fighting for his life in the game by doing everything he could to stay, but he wouldn't do it.

[00:47:02] He refused to say a bad word about anyone else. He didn't want to push another player and big brother to do something that's in his own best interest. He wouldn't reveal the multiple alliances that people like Saree and Felicia and Izzy were in. It's possible, again, as we mentioned, that refusal ended up saving him, but he had no way of knowing that. And he was getting voted out whether or not there happened to be a power given to just the right person at just the right time.

[00:47:31] Jag came into the game with a plan. But as the famous philosopher Mike Tyson said, everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face. Riley getting quickly targeted and evicted was that punch, and Jag just was not ready for it. It really kept him spinning for far longer than it should have. He ended up with one alliance and an HOH and veto winner who were willing or working together outside that alliance with several members overlapping. And they saw him as a threat moving forward.

[00:48:02] ensuring his demise by putting him up against his friend and ally, Blue, which also had the effect of ensuring Jared would vote against Jag no matter what his overall thoughts were or what his mother wanted. Jag was seen as a threat by many people in the game. They had no idea how right they were. And that is why Jag would have lost. There we go. Good job. Finally, take that off the bucket list. That's right. That's right.

[00:48:30] The clucket list with that chicken outfit. How do you feel, David? Do you feel you got that monkey off your back? Yes. Yes. It's, you know, I don't have to worry now. It's been used. It did not go to waste. Exactly. Exactly. Much like that power. Fantastic job. As per usual. Thank you. And thank you. Yes, I do want to thank Scott and Jess and everyone behind the scenes at RHAP. Further thanks to Rob and Sam and Brandon and Derek and Michaela and everyone else who

[00:48:59] helped set up RehapCon or, you know, helping us record this here. Indeed, thanks to everyone who wrote in to encourage me to record this podcast, as I mentioned it in the past. And of course, a special thanks to you, Mike, for joining me in this trip to an alternate universe. Cannot wait until 2036 when someone else gets saved by a power. We can come back and talk about it. This is a great idea, David. I mean, we've been doing so much great stuff at RHAPCon, but this is a great opportunity to sit down.

[00:49:27] Of course, we celebrated the 1000th episode of Big Brother. It's been a lot of pontificating, a lot of flashbacks over the past couple of days. And this is an interesting flashback to have. So thank you so much for having me on and having me into this wonderful news desk laid in room. Yes, yes. And thank you to our audience here, as we said. Yes. Oh, yeah. The roar of thousands. That's right. All right. And of course, you know, we're not entirely sure when this will go out because we're not

[00:49:57] just doing one Y Blank Lost. We may be doing a couple of Big Brother Y Blank Lost due to the 1000th plus episode twist. Uh, so we will episode 1001. Yeah. The twist. Uh, so we will see what happens, but whenever it goes out, you can always find us on RHAP and the We Know Big Brother, uh, uh, feed. So look for us there. And then Survivor season is starting too. So that'll be We Know Survivor.

[00:50:25] And, uh, there we go. We will see you when we get back to the present, uh, from this, uh, trip to three years ago. Thanks again. Bye. Bye.

[00:50:57] This episode is brought to you by ChatGPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons podcast. Have you guys heard about ChatGPT work? It's the new way to use ChatGPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give ChatGPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting work mode available on Plus and Pro Plans.