I Made Stephen Fishbach Watch Big Brother

[00:00:08] Hello everyone and welcome to a special bonus episode of our Big Brother coverage here at We Know Reality TV. RHAP is what we call it. I'm your host, Aaron Armstrong, and I call this a very special bonus episode of coverage because there's no, we just watched the premiere last night and there's no live feeds. We have to wait until Sunday. It's like we're watching Survivor and there's nothing.

[00:00:36] RHAP how rude already starting my God. Yeah. And so, uh, so with that in mind, I managed to convince slash force slash entice Stephen Fishbach of Survivor Know-It-All's fame to watch the Big Brother premiere and he is here with me now. Stephen, how are you doing? I'm great. I mean, really excited to podcast with you. You know, had I known that we'd be slinging insults out of the gate about our respective show interests, I would have like,

[00:01:04] you know, dressed up in a chicken costume and been clucking around to like mirror the vibe of Big Brother lunacy. Yes. Uh, maybe some slime on you. Uh, you know, well, we have a good time. Um, Stephen, you do not have much experience with Big Brother. You've seen just, just a little bit before, right?

[00:01:26] I watched season 14. It was like, I was like freshly off of Survivor. I mean, I think that's roughly the timeline. And I was like, you know what? I should give this a try. Like, see what everybody's talking about. It was too much for me. Like, it was like, first of all, it's like too much stuff.

[00:01:39] And like, to really get it, you kind of have like three episodes a week beyond like, you think to really know what's happening. You got to get into the feeds. And I just felt like I'd never, you know, and then I was just like so embarrassed all the time. Right. You know, but now I mean, I'm, I am an older man and I, maybe I can handle my embarrassment better. That's why I wanted to come back and, and see again. Um, and also, as we discussed, uh, I'm excited to talk. I've got like a book to promote. So I'll do anything. I'll even watch Big Brother.

[00:02:05] Yeah. Basically we, we both wrote books. And so I kind of like, uh, pretend this is your book. I could just kind of dangled it in front of you to drag you along. Imagine Photoshop and my book here, my fictional book, both fictional because it doesn't exist yet in the world and, and fiction. Yes. Yes. So, uh, so, uh, the, the premise of this podcast, we did one last year where we talked to the jet lag guys to see what their thoughts were on Big Brother.

[00:02:34] I'm going to try and sell Steven on Big Brother, uh, try to like explain to him the value of it beyond, you know, the slime and the costumes and the masked visitors. Uh, and, um, and we'll hopefully have like a fun discussion about Big Brother, maybe compare it to Survivor a little bit. And then of course, uh, maybe talk a little bit about the books that we wrote, which is kind of cool that we both wrote books. So, um, yeah, let's, Steven, you watched the premiere.

[00:03:04] I did. Yes. Headline thoughts. I mean, I actually was surprised how engaged I was because first of all, not a lot happens in this premiere. There's like, I mean, there are three challenges, but they're all kind of ridiculous. Um, but like, like a big chunk of this show is just like getting, like getting people's background stories. And I was kind of like, they really front load that there was a lot of just like intro packages for a lot of people without like any kind of narrative content.

[00:03:32] Then we have them all going into the house and they're all like, Oh, I'm so excited to be here. I'm so excited to be here for like a long period of time. And Survivor that happens too, but at least they're like doing stuff, you know, like they're like a shelter. They're like, Oh my God, how am I going to live outside? Um, and there was like very little like conflict or content there, you know, other than, you know, I think we got some bromances and some, some potential romances seated there. Um, so a, like my big vibe was like not, not too much happened here.

[00:03:58] Like there was not a lot of like, and then the other was just how absurd the theming is. I mean, it was kind of like cool. I thought the house, the hotel mystere or mystere as Julia says, um, was like kind of cool, but then there's also a bond layer. It just like felt like, like let's, let's throw everything at the wall. You know, like, it's like, we've got this French chateau and it's also this evil bond villain layer, um, underneath it. But I, I, I kind of, by the end, I have to say I was a little intrigued.

[00:04:28] Like suddenly you got like Rachel Riley coming in and then there's just like this mystery that I didn't even know was going to happen about this. Like who's the, who's the accomplice. Um, so like, I, I just liked it, you know, by the end, they like, suddenly there's a lot of like narrative hooks. And like, my big question is like, does that keep going or does it kind of settle into a pace? Like, are you always, is there like always some new accomplice to discover? Like, I love a good social deduction game. Taryn, we play blood on the clock tower together. I mean, I really liked that, that, uh, aspect of it. Yeah.

[00:04:57] I mean, I think it's very interesting that, uh, that you, you, you said it's, it's at least a little bit cool because I think that that is not very complicated. Uh, for big brother. And I, and I, I actually agree. I think that like a lot of people are excited about the house theme and everything because it is moderately cooler than the normal theming. Uh, but yeah, the premiere very little often happens in the premiere. Uh, we usually have like two night premieres.

[00:05:26] So it's like, you have the one night and then the following night you get the next, uh, episode where you get a little more meat on the bone. Um, but in this season, for whatever reason, we're waiting until Sunday to get that next episode. Um, so, you know, we, we, in terms of like, is this normal? Does this continue? No, the premiere is definitely, I would say a fairly unique episode. Uh, they very much front load the cast, as you mentioned, very unlike survivor survivor.

[00:05:56] You like a two to three minute montage of introductions and then get, get to the, like Jeff probes talking to them on the beach and then get into challenges. And then there are some people who you won't see like a proper intro package for until like episode five. Or like later. I mean, like some people get like, like towards like episode 12, they'll like, you'll finally get their backstory. Mm hmm. Yes. Uh, not so with big brother. It's a lot more straightforward in that sense.

[00:06:25] Um, I think to some degree it's like, you know, you are going to be living with these people for the next up to a hundred days. And so, you know, let's just introduce them all. Uh, there's a lot of the big brother episodes that follow just like a formula that has mostly just been in place for the last 25 years. Uh, and they have not done a lot to like recalculate that formula, uh, in that time.

[00:06:53] But, um, but it is very much just kind of how, how they do it. Uh, and one thing I think is interesting about this kind of podcast is that I think a lot of big brother fans have this experience. Of being like, this is my summer obsession. Let me try to explain it to you. It's actually, I know it sounds ridiculous that I'm watching people live in a house, uh, on live feeds. And, and I know that big brother doesn't have a good reputation like around the world and everything, but there's actually some really interesting things about it.

[00:07:22] I'm pro I promise you, like there's some really cool strategic insights and, uh, sociological, uh, things to, to track. And, you know, it can actually be really interesting. So just, just watch, just watch, just let's watch the season with me. And then they watch the premiere and the, and the person looks at them and they say, uh, mask visitor, huh? Yeah, exactly. This is so corny. And then even like all of the, like the backgrounds and the competitions, it's like, like someone like painted like lava. I mean, they'll live the crossing the lava bridge.

[00:07:52] Um, just like it felt, it feels very like a Nickelodeon show, you know, from the nineties or even earlier where it's like all the pieces are made out of cardboard. Like where did this come from? Um, and, and the fact that like one of the challenges had basically no stakes, like the guy like wins $10,000, like, yay, has no impact on the game at all. And also like, you just got unlucky. You were in the wrong challenge. Cause like the other challenge is meaningful. Your challenge was not meaningful at all.

[00:08:19] Um, and then the other challenge, it's like people wandering confusedly around a room. Like, you know, there's just like, there was nothing. I didn't feel like I was playing along at home. I didn't feel any kind of like urgency. I was like, okay, I guess they're like lost in this confusing room as they search for their, the right key. And then one guy's like, okay, I think I've got it. And that was it. Yeah. They, I would say are not great at editing challenges together. Uh, they are also not great at live challenges.

[00:08:46] Um, but, uh, in general I would say, but here's the thing. I think the casual audience tends to enjoy the. Like spectacle of these ridiculous challenges. Otherwise I can't imagine why they would continue doing them. I think in general, the like super fan, so to speak, audience doesn't love them too much. They take up a lot of time in the episodes. Uh, most of the time, if you are a big fan, you already know the result of the competition. Cause you've been watching the live feeds or you're keeping up with the live feeds.

[00:09:16] So they really just kind of get in the way. And big brother also very well known for it. So I walked out into the backyard and I saw that this competition was a competition where I have to put a bridge together. And once I put the bridge together, I have to listen to Julie talk. And then a couple of minutes in. So how this competition works is that you put a bridge together and then you listen to Julie. It's for the people who are like doing their housework while also kind of like casually watching big brother in the background. That's giving them too much credit.

[00:09:44] One question I had was out of the gate. Like every single person basically said the same thing in their package. Like, Hey, I'm like, I look, you know, super fit, but I'm also a brainiac nerd. And I'm also a super big brother fan. And I'm not going to tell anybody that I'm a brainiac nerd. I'm gonna lie about my profession. And I'm not going to tell anyone I'm a brainiac, like big brother fan. And like survivor, of course, recently has been criticized because they've just started casting the super fans kind of nonstop.

[00:10:13] And it's become kind of like one archetype of player. But like looking at this cast, I thought it was kind of cool. Like there seemed to be a whole range of different just like types of people's like just like physically, you know, you've got Keanu in there and you've got Ava in there. And, you know, I mean, just like every, you know, just like a whole range of like people. But they all kind of seem to say the same thing. Like, has there been an evolution in who gets cast?

[00:10:41] And is that like provoked some kind of, you know, people feel in some kind of way in the fan base? It's definitely ebbed and flowed. The casting director changed for the first time meaningfully a few years ago. And he, I would say, has a slightly different approach. But for the most part, it kind of comes and goes.

[00:11:06] Basically, there was an introduction to the super fan archetype way back in the day with like Eric Stein. And then moving forward from there, of course, like Ian Terry and Steve Moses. And then basically what happened was there was a period of more than 10 years. Basically, when Rachel Riley first won her season, because you could qualify her as a super fan at that point,

[00:11:34] because she had already played and was big into the show then. From when she won until basically when Taylor Hale won as a recruit, it was all the only people that could win were people that knew the show, that were big fans of the show, that had watched it for a long time. And even Taylor did a bunch of studying before she went on. If you don't know the show, you just don't tend to win.

[00:12:00] And even just last season, we had a player, MJ, who dominated the competitions, which isn't to say that Chelsea didn't either. But MJ was in a position to completely win the game. All she needed to do was not take Chelsea to the end. And she wins. But MJ didn't know the show. Chelsea knew the show. And Chelsea was just able to lie about how the show worked. And MJ just believed her.

[00:12:30] And MJ had never seen, you know, Cody take Derek to the end. And Derek beats Cody. And, you know, very like woo-like, right? And so she just didn't have the knowledge, the experience, the whatever, to know she should not be doing that. And so she didn't win. So having knowledge of the game is super important. What I will say is that this cast actually, I would say, is fairly light on the fans.

[00:12:57] You do have, you know, Keanu, Lauren, Ashley, and a few others, Jimmy. But there are a lot of people that are like, yeah, I'm becoming a fan. Ever since I got this key, I feel like a deep kinship for this show. And so that, I think, is actually a good thing for somebody like Rachel Riley, who is coming on.

[00:13:25] But that is not to say that people who aren't fans can't play hard, can't be entertaining, can't do well. But there does tend to be a bit of a disparity. So what I think is interesting about this, even though there are fans, very few of them seem to have some of, like, the basics. If you're a super fan, you'd know. So, for instance, winning the first HOH.

[00:13:53] A lot of them in this first episode talked about, like, oh, don't win the first HOH. I don't want to win the first HOH. I don't want to put a target on my back. But we know, we have known for a long time, winning the first HOH is actually generally a huge boon to your game. It's massively important. You are the first person in power. Your introduction to everyone is them coming up to you and wanting to work with you, wanting to be your friend. Yeah.

[00:14:17] And so all of these people not wanting to be the first HOH, despite being fans, is kind of a giveaway generally that, like, they're not really in some of the discussions. You know what I mean? They're kind of probably just watching and coming up with their own conclusions. That's actually, like, a really intriguing way as, like, a total outsider, like, of putting it. Like, it, like, establishes this kind of, like, psychological relationship where you're, like, a supplicant to this person who just won the HOH.

[00:14:45] I mean, in Survivor, it is pretty clearly, you know, you don't necessarily want to win challenges early. I mean, the individual challenges early. Like, basically for the reason that everybody's saying, which is that then suddenly, you know, you are considered a threat to get out of the game just so that you can't win challenges later. You know, obviously, you always want to win challenges to some degree. But interesting that, like, that level of power kind of, like, establishes this hierarchy.

[00:15:10] I mean, what about, though, what Vince is saying here that I'm going to have two people who are super pissed at me coming back into the game? Like, that resonates to me. You know, I mean, just obviously as a beyond casual viewer, that makes sense to me. Is that not true? It is true. And that is the attempt at balancing the head of household power. Because what we've learned over the last 25 years is that being head of household is super, super powerful.

[00:15:39] It is a sole player who is able to control the entire outcome of the week to a decent degree by choosing who is vulnerable to be evicted that week. And beyond just, like, the surface level power, it's as we talked about, it means also that, like, the way that you interact with that person changes. The opportunities they have to bond and to make deals and to create groups and alliances skyrockets.

[00:16:09] And so being in that position is super powerful. So they try to balance it by not allowing you to win twice in a row, unless you're Jag, and they just decide that he can win every competition. And also that you have to nominate more than one person. And, you know, back in the day, it used to be the very first time they ran this format in season two, it was the HOH would win. They'd nominate two people, and that was it. One of those two people would be voted out.

[00:16:38] But then they introduced the power of veto in season three, which allowed somebody to be removed from the block. And then you might have to nominate a third person. Now it's like, oh, I've nominated three people now, and only one of them is leaving. And then last season, they introduced the AI arena. They're now calling it the BB Blockbuster, which makes the HOH nominate three people. There will then also be a veto competition. So one of them could be removed from the block, forcing them to nominate a fourth person.

[00:17:07] And then the BB Blockbuster, one of them might be able to save themselves and pull themselves off the block. And then that leaves only two people left on the block. So you could have theoretically nominated upwards of four people that week. So is that going to persist every week? Or is that just going to be week one? That will persist. They called it a permanent change, which implies to me that they're keeping it for multiple seasons. But also, I believe last season, they didn't intend for it to run as long as it did.

[00:17:37] I think it went to like the final nine-ish. And then they stopped it and went to a normal format. There is a way I think they could extend it even further if they wanted. But at some point, they'll have to stop it because you don't have enough people to nominate. Rob here. It's Big Brother season. And you ever notice at the start of the Big Brother season how fast the house turns into a literal disaster by week two?

[00:18:05] The dishes are piled up. There's cereal on the floor. And inevitably, the ants invade the house. Well, flash forward to my living room. Two kids. Snack crumbs everywhere. I'm one Cheerio away from hosting my own insect alliance. So this summer, I'm calling in the backup, Homaglow. Yes, that's Homaglow. And this episode is sponsored by Homaglow. Here's why. They're about to be the MVP of my cleaning support squad.

[00:18:35] They've got instant online booking. Jump on their site. Pick the day time and how many hours you need. Schedule next week's deep clean or lock something in for next month. Easy. They're top-rated pros. Every cleaner passes a certification process and keeps at least a 4.8-star average. You can see photos and read reviews before you book. So handing over the house keys actually makes you feel safe. And with a Forever Clean membership, once you join,

[00:19:02] cleanings start at $19 an hour, saving you $30 an hour every time. And you can book as often as you like, backed by Homaglow's happiness guarantee. And what's great is 100% of the cleaning fees and tips go straight to the cleaner, which is nice. A tidy space means no ants. Happy Nicole. The kids can find all their stuff. Nothing is sticky. And I can get back to podcasting. Sounds like a win to me. Take home cleaning off your plate this summer by using Homaglow.

[00:19:32] Head to Homaglow.com slash Rob to get your first three hours of cleaning for only $19. That's H-O-M-E-A-G-L-O-W dot com slash Rob. It's funny that like they are trying to buy, like Big Brother is trying to like work out how to like make physical competitors less strong, like starting out of the gate and then persisting into the show.

[00:19:57] And then Survivor kind of has like the inverse problem where they're like constantly expanding the end to like try to get the strategic favorite, like give them a way in to the end where they went from like a final two. Now it's a final three, you know, then it's a final four with fire making. I mean, there's, there's feels like, I feel like there's some kind of like parody there. And like these shows trying to balance their games so that this like one archetype of player can't just like a static cure, like establish that kind of dominance out of the gate.

[00:20:26] And like they're kind of like shut out the strategic players in the end. I would say historically, I am the way that I'm describing it is probably too generous to their actual intent. That I think the introduction of the veto was more so to give more to do in the like Wednesday episodes of the time

[00:20:53] and to add a little more potential for things to change by the end of the week. Uh, and actually give competitors more of a chance to save themselves, uh, if they were in trouble. And then the AI arena is, is actually part of the same thing. Part of why it worked so well last season is that, uh, it, it forced the players to come up with multiple plans for who to evict at the end of the week, because you don't know at the last minute, somebody might save themselves.

[00:21:21] And all of a sudden, as if this were survivor, you have to come up with a new plan, like on the spot. Uh, or have a new one planned or an alternative one planned in case. Um, and so, uh, so that's part of why the issue has in the modern era been that competitions have not been very well balanced.

[00:21:42] Um, and weirdly in survivor, if you're like a really physical player, you can probably win a decent percentage of those immunity challenges, right? Like, uh, if you won like half of the immunity challenges, that would be like a pretty good, uh, like you'd be like a really good immunity challenge player. Um, on big brother, if you are like a physical competitor, um, you're going to win more than half. What does physical competitor here mean?

[00:22:10] Cause like the challenges I saw today were like, do a puzzle and then listen to an audio recording or like do another puzzle, you know, trying to figure out like piece, piece together where the jewels are. And then the last one is like, do a balancing puzzle, you know? I mean, I mean, like, listen, survivors, very like balancing puzzle base, but it did not feel like this was, there was anything physical to these physical competitions.

[00:22:31] Yes. Now. So there's, there's two things to that. One is that in, since last season, since the introduction of the AI arena and, um, and, and now seemingly coming into the season, it does seem like the challenges are being tweaked a little bit. Like they've potentially heard us a little bit, uh, because in season 25, the season Sari was on, um, and Sari famously has had an issue with survivor challenges.

[00:22:56] Um, but the, the issue is much bigger in big brother because of how much power the challenges hold. If one person wins even 75% of immunity challenges, you can still evict, you can still vote them out any of the times they don't win. Right. Um, and in big brother, if you win 75% of HOHs and or vetoes, then you are immune most of the time. Wow.

[00:23:22] And also you get to choose who leaves every time, which means you can continue to eliminate your toughest competitors, only snowballing the effect of you being able to win. And then on top of that, on the off chance that you do lose both HOH and veto one week, all you need is at least one of your allies to win one of those things. And you're probably fine. Um, and so it's way more powerful to be able to win competitions.

[00:23:49] And in season 25, there was basically one guy that was able to, to basically win out from like the final 10 on, um, he just was unevictable. Uh, and, um, and Sari was unable to do anything about it. Just like had to sit there and wait for her time. Essentially. That's frustrating. I mean, like that is frustrating, right? As, as like a fan and then a strategic player, I mean, and as a strategic viewer, you know what, I mean, is that annoying? Yeah, it was annoying. It's an annoying one.

[00:24:18] Uh, I've been complaining about it for a while. Um, so we're a little hopeful because as you saw, these challenges were a little better. And, and, and when I talk about physical too, part of it is that like on the surface, you might say, oh, this is not that bad. Um, but a lot of them will be like, there's a quiz portion or a puzzle portion and a physical portion. And that's true on survivor too.

[00:24:40] But again, it's, it's just, it's more impactful on big brother where like, okay, there's a quiz portion, but you need to be running around for 30 minutes, uh, like locking in your pieces. Or it's like, well, the person who does it the fastest running back and forth, putting the pieces together or answering the questions is going to win.

[00:25:00] And when you have a 25 year old athlete against a 40 year old mother, like it's just, they're the, they're never going to beat the, the athlete as long as they can get the basic easy questions answered. Yeah. Um, so that's another thing is that like the, the puzzle or quiz portions tend to be really dumbed down and really easy.

[00:25:22] And so like, if you ramp the difficulty up on those things, then it could equalize a little bit, uh, theoretically, but that hasn't historically been the case in the, at least in the modern era. Um, but we're hopeful. We're hopeful with some of the changes. How much of the game is, you know, that sort of like side quest stuff. So obviously like the core mechanics of the game I get right there, like this reality TV strategy. There's votes, there's the HOH competitions or the veto competitions.

[00:25:46] Like, and then you've got who is the accomplice, you know, who is the mastermind? Like how much of the game, like, is that just a lot of like early flavor that then kind of goes by the wayside? Or do you keep on having these little, like, but now, you know, like that kind of like random side quest. In the past, not much. Uh, flavor is a good way to describe it. Like for instance, famously big brother 17 had the BB takeover twist.

[00:26:13] Let's get ready for a takeover, uh, where, you know, uh, every week a takeover was going to happen. And, uh, Gronk showed up to invite someone to his cruise. And, um, you know, there were people from the amazing race, uh, that, that joined the cast. And, um, it was like, oh boy. And then they canceled the twist like two weeks in because it was just boring. Um, so, um, uh, so yeah, I mean, even something like this, right.

[00:26:42] This idea, this hunt for the accomplice, uh, it is, it's a little, it's a little like blood on the clock tower. You're right. Like somebody has a role. You need to figure out the role. You can vote them out if you figure out the role, something along those lines. Um, but what normally happens and it might not happen this season, but what normally happens is that, uh, it doesn't feel always super well thought out where like, for instance, with this particular twist, what information do they really even have to go on to figure out who this person is so far? Seemingly nothing.

[00:27:12] Well, I thought Adrian, um, yeah, Adrian had a good point of like, we don't actually control the lights. We can't figure out who turned the lights off because we have no idea how to turn the lights off. We were all sitting on the couch. Like, yeah. Like, what does that even mean? Like, like how, like maybe there was like a secret button someone had to push somewhere. Like there are, presumably we'll find out later, you know, what that quest was, but it is kind of like, there's no clue for the contestants because they don't know like how the mechanics of the world work. Yeah.

[00:27:40] And so from my perspective, the most likely outcome is something along the lines of, well, this person's weird and we don't like them. So it's probably them. Yeah. Let's all vote for that person. And if it's not them, then we'll also just probably nominate the person to try to get them evicted. Like basically, uh, this is what I said on the podcast last night, but like the, um, the first boot of the last few seasons, every one of those people are the people that would have been suspected of being the accomplice. If that twist were on that season. Right.

[00:28:10] Because there's a little bit on the outside, like a little, yeah. I would be looking at the people who are not talking, right? Like that's just like the typical clock tower. Like who's not speaking up here. They're the, um, but yeah. But so, so basically, and again, it might not work this way because maybe they will be introduced to some clues. Maybe they will take it seriously, but typically how it works is, uh, here's a great example, actually. Uh, and, and a fun little story about big brother strategy.

[00:28:35] Um, in big brother five, there was a twin twist where, uh, a pair of twins played the game secretly by swapping out every few days without any of the other players knowing. So Adria was actually Adria and Natalie, and they had to exchange information every time they swapped places. That seems like a huge disadvantage for those two players. It was, it was definitely a disadvantage. Um, they had to keep it a secret.

[00:29:01] Yeah, they had to keep it a secret, uh, because if they were found out and they wouldn't be allowed to have both of them enter the game at any point. Um, they kept it a secret for five weeks and then, and then the twin was able to join the game. Uh, at which point, uh, ironically they, they crashed and burned. Um, well, that's funny. That's actually, that's very funny. Okay. Yeah. Uh, season 17, they brought the twist back. They had, they had, they did the same thing. Twins in the house again, only this time they were fully caught in week like two.

[00:29:31] Uh, like it just, they, they were clocked and, uh, and theoretically this means, oh man, that means they shouldn't really be able to enter the game or whatever. Um, but they were kind of like, nah, that's fine. Let's just, as long as they're not voted out, uh, then they can enter the game. Yeah. This time instead, once they were caught, it wasn't like, ah, we caught them. Let's get them out before a twin can join.

[00:29:50] And instead Vanessa, a poker player who did very well strategically that season was like, well, this is actually an opportunity because, uh, she actually went to the twin and said, Hey, everyone thinks you're a twin. Um, got them to confess it to her and said, don't worry. I've got your back, uh, bonded with that person and then started pitching to other players that they were loose, that she was loose and connected with. Uh, like, Hey, this is a two for one deal. If we keep Liz in the game long enough, she will multiply.

[00:30:20] Yeah. There'll be another person in our alliance. Yeah. Isn't this great for us? Uh, and essentially was able to use this to her strategic advantage. Um, and, and basically like this, this whole idea of like, oh, you got to keep it a secret. They'll want you out. It didn't really work that way because at the end of the day, it was like, no, this is actually a good thing for us. Yeah. That's really, I mean, that's what that's exciting about all these games. I mean, and that's, what's good about having like the fans and super fans and strategic players is that they're thinking like next level about the strategy.

[00:30:48] It's not just like, oh no, there's two of them. Let's remove them. But like, how can I use this, this thing to my advantage? I mean, one, one, um, is it like survivor in that there's like a strategist whack-a-mole for survivor? There's just like, now there's, you know, big threat whack-a-mole, right? Tallest poppy is always going to get cut. Uh, rarely does that person make it to the end and actually win.

[00:31:09] When, I mean, we did see it a little bit in the last season, 48, where, you know, Kyle and Joe are both there in the end, but only because it was very boring season, you know? So like, is, is, um, how, how does it work? Like who is, I guess if, if someone's always immune, is there always that next big threat or is it more alliance based? Like how, what's like the overall like strategic zeitgeist of the show? It's so much more alliance based.

[00:31:33] It's so much more structural, um, that, uh, basically the, the, the baseline level of how the strategy tends to work is that there's a big group that forms in the beginning. And, uh, and that group will either break up or just continue, but either way, if it breaks up, another big group will form in its place generally. Um, and, uh, and they will stick together to some degree to take out the outsiders.

[00:32:01] Um, and then maybe there'll be like a big move here or there to break up a big group or to take out a really big threat. But I would say it's much less like individual focused. It is way more like we as a group have decided that we are taking a shot at this other group. Um, and so, you know, they really need to go or in like last season, Tucker was winning a bunch of competitions. And so a lot of people like, we really need to get Tucker out.

[00:32:28] Um, but by getting Tucker out, it was really like, we're forming a group to get Tucker out. Right. And now we are the new group. And then that group just dominated the rest of the game. Essentially, uh, whittled themselves down. Um, and so, uh, yeah, there's definitely not much. It tends to have a lot of momentum. Um, if you, because again, it's like, you're able to really control exactly how it goes. So if you have the HOH, then you can be like, well, these are the two people on the block.

[00:32:57] And I can, if I'm playing my cards, right, I can pretty much guarantee that this person's the one that's going to leave as long as they don't win a comp or whatever. Um, and that's good because now I can plan for next time because I know they're going to be gone. Uh, and so next time we're going to like, uh, be like, okay, we're already setting this person up to be the next target. Um, and people aren't really jumping around between alliances too often. They're more reliant on like the competitions to shift power, like somebody on the outside winning an HOH. And now all of a sudden the majority is screwed.

[00:33:27] There's nothing they can do. Two of them are going up on the block unless they can convince the dummy to not do that. So except for that last sentence, what you're describing sounds very boring. Like, you know, a show where one Alliance sort of like, you know, steamrolls to the end and slash, or like one super good challenge competitor is unassailable and steamrolls to the end with not a lot of shifts in power dynamics. Other than if, you know, that one Alliance goes up against that one challenge competitor.

[00:33:56] And then, then there's some tension. Like, what is it like, is it like, what is it about this show that you love? You know, like you are obviously such a strategic minded player who, um, you know, just, you know, amazing at blood on the clock tower, like obviously like sees all of the permutations of this. Like, what is it about the show? I assume it's not super boring or you wouldn't keep, keep loving it and watching it and writing a book about it. It can be super boring. It definitely exists.

[00:34:24] Um, however, there are a couple of things that, that help prevent it from being so sometimes. Um, one of those things in like, say a modern season is that, uh, that momentum shift doesn't often happen until like the second half. Um, in the first half, it's all about jockeying for power to see who is going to be that, that group that, that gains momentum.

[00:34:52] Um, and so you do often see like groups are forming and then a counter group will form, or there are some like insurgents that will try to, uh, destroy the group. And then maybe within the group, they're like, actually, we don't like this, uh, exact consistency. So let's maybe shift it over here. Last season we saw, there were some players that were like, oh, we actually don't want this person to leave. Cause we like them. We'd rather want, we'd rather have this person leave. And so then they aren't flipping the house and then that shifts the groups. And then also alliances can get exposed.

[00:35:21] Secrecy is a huge part of, uh, big brother. And so if you get exposed, then that, you know, tells everyone else, well, we need to be targeting these people. And so a lot of things can shift. Um, the competitions themselves are also again, part of this, where if your Alliance doesn't win and you get a rogue HOH, just wants to do whatever they want. And this can completely derail your plans. Um, and, uh, and it can be very telling like where the votes go. Uh, so the first half of seasons are all, are often very exciting and fluid and all over the place.

[00:35:51] Um, the other part of it, we don't get as much of nowadays, uh, in part because the competitions are too winnable by the same people. Um, but the, the way that the show really like made a name for itself in, I think the world of strategy beyond just like the overall, it was one of the first, um, is that the show I, I think at its heart, uh, and its origins is a show about the outsiders overcoming this,

[00:36:20] uh, deficiency. It's, it's when you look at the winners, the big strategic innovators of the first, you know, seven to 10 seasons of the show, uh, they're all people that were not included in these big groups. Uh, they're all people who had to find ways to skirt around the big power that these groups wielded, um, with different strategies and different methods to usurp that power, take it for their own and maneuver their way to the end and really entertaining and fun, in fun strategic ways.

[00:36:50] Um, and so a lot of, I think big brother, uh, viewers, they're kind of chasing that high. They're waiting for like, when is the next, like Dan Giesling going to show up and, and really have a good old time playing this game. Um, and so I think strategically, those are the two main reasons why it's still really exciting, especially at the start of a season to jump into, uh, to the game. Well, what about with, with the feed? I mean, like my perspective is like, can I, can I even watch big brother if I'm not watching

[00:37:20] the live feeds? Like to me, it seems that like, it's like reading the book versus watching the movie. You know, if you're watching the movie, you have a very superficial understanding of what's happening and you read the book and you're like, Oh my God, I know every single one of these little micro interactions that has led to this vote. Um, like, do you feel like people who are only just seeing the episodes, which there are a lot of episodes, uh, are, are just getting like a really superficial view of the, like the human dynamics. Cause that has to be part of the appeal too.

[00:37:47] I mean, you're getting like a depth of insight into like the interpersonal human dynamics that drive strategy that you can't get in a show that airs 90 minutes a week, like survivor. A hundred percent. Um, I mean, to answer the question, I think that, uh, I like to describe big brother as a choose your own adventure show. Um, you can kind of like choose whatever path you want to take. Uh, some people only watch the episodes and that is enough for them. You will, you will get the story. Uh, you will miss out on some details.

[00:38:17] Some things will be not entirely accurate, but you're essentially doing the same thing that you'd be doing watching survivor. Uh, in fact, I would say the edited episodes of big brother are likely more accurate to what's actually happening than survivor is. Right. Uh, they have to be faithful cause they've got a record. Exactly. Um, which doesn't make them a hundred percent faithful by any means, but I would say they are probably one of the more faithful, uh, uh, adaptations, uh, edit wise.

[00:38:46] Um, so you can just watch the episodes if you want. Some people don't watch the episodes at all. They only watch the feeds because they're like, I see the, that's actually fairly unique. Um, some people, uh, don't watch the feeds, but they loosely keep track of them via Twitter. Uh, like big events will pop up on their feed. They'll be scrolling through the day and just be kind of like passively updated on the general things happening.

[00:39:13] Um, some people follow the live feed updates every morning and that's just, they only listen to live feed updates. That's how they consume the entire season. Uh, some people only listen to the podcasts, uh, the recaps, um, uh, or the round tables. Like it's really like up to you. And the thing about it too, is that once you get that sort of base, like if I tried to do that with survivor and like never watch the episodes and only consume the podcast, I'd,

[00:39:39] I'd have a pretty hard time because by the time I finally got used to like who's who, uh, and what's happening, like the, the, the season would be over. Um, but on big brother, if you were like, you know, even passively, uh, sort of consuming the season by week two, you're going to pretty much know everyone and their general strategic position in the house. Uh, and you can continue to, to like consume it from there.

[00:40:07] Uh, and if you dive in a bit, you watch the premiere, you, um, you know, you watched some of the live feed updates, uh, then you're really going to have like a solid foundation to, to move from there. Um, and so I don't think you have to be on top of it. You don't have to dive super deep into the rabbit hole. Um, but, uh, it's there for you if you want it to be. Uh, and if it's boring, you can just kind of like ignore it. And if it gets interesting, you can look into it a little more.

[00:40:36] Um, and, and one of the really interesting things about big brother for me because of the live feeds is that it, it lives with you. It's, it's there with you all the time. It's like, uh, at any time, if the feeds were on right now, I could check my phone and be like, Oh boy, Zay just got in trouble. Oh man. Um, or like, you know, check in on like, how's Rachel doing? Is anyone trash talking her yet? Uh, and it's just always there.

[00:41:04] Um, and you know, at any moment something could be happening. Uh, and that's cool. That is very fun. Yeah. That, that, that is cool. I mean, I, that was sort of what I felt like I could never keep up with it as a result. Like when I, when I did watch the season, but like, you know, and just like being a completionist, like I, it was like, Oh no, I'm just hanging out on some, some crucial dynamic. That's going to, you know, I'll never know what's going on now, but that is really cool. I love the idea that you can always just sort of like casually, I mean, it beats checking

[00:41:32] in on Twitter, you know, just like this point, like now that my baseline interaction with like the digital world is just mindless scrolling, like purposeful looking seems more interesting than that. Um, who, who did you, who do you like? Like who's popping? And I'm sure you like, you know, your, your, your listeners already know this, but who, who is exciting for you? Like, I'm just trying to get a sense of like, what's, you know, what are they like the exciting characters for, for an expert on the show? It's, it's tough. I would say, and this is kind of interesting.

[00:41:59] I think on survivor, you, you see the preseason stuff and I think you get a general sense of who you might like, and then you watch the premiere. And I think you, you kind of like really get a good sense of who most of the people are and who the favorites might be, especially because, uh, obviously huge, huge difference. Survivor is edited after the fact. And so already telling stories. Um, whereas on big brother, you can watch the premiere and be like, oh, I really liked Ashley.

[00:42:24] And then the feeds come on and two days later, you're like, okay, so Ashley is my least favorite. Right. Uh, but I do like Ashley. Uh, I, I really like Ashley so far. Um, I liked that she was willing to compete in the HOH. I thought that it was very silly to not even try to compete at all. Even if you don't, didn't want it. I felt like just being there and then losing is a better look for you if you don't want to be seen as a competitor. And then on top of that, you can be making deals with the other players. Like, Hey, we're all agreeing.

[00:42:54] We're not targeting each other. Right. Um, and so the people that were just like completely hands up, I was like, what are we doing here? Um, but, uh, I, I also tend to like fans of the show, uh, at least out of the gate a bit more. I think they are more likely to be better players, more likely to not frustrate me with decisions that they make. Uh, not always, but, um, you know, sometimes, sometimes they frustrate me even more because they should know better. Um, but, uh, but yeah, Ashley is somebody that started to me.

[00:43:24] I like Keanu. He seems kind of fun. Um, but, uh, we'll see. Uh, there was, there's a lot of people I thought were, were pretty cool, but it's, it's really like, I would say most people are despite, you know, saying like, Oh, I like this person. I like this person. You really have to wait until the live feed start because that's when you really actually get to know the players. Yeah. That makes sense. I mean, that makes a lot of sense.

[00:43:50] Like, cause obviously this is still very edited and very superficial. I mean, Jimmy seemed like very, you know, I would think he, Jimmy would have been a, uh, a standout early competitor for you. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I like Jimmy too. I would say we talked about this last night. The concern for Jimmy is that he mentioned that Rachel was a threat and I think that's true. He's completely correct. And it's a smart thing to say in the diary room. Right. But if he says that in the house, he's in trouble. Yeah.

[00:44:18] It's, it is not a good idea usually to try to target the vet coming in because as we saw, there are a bunch of people that were fans of Rachel. Um, and she's automatically going to have eyes and ears out there. She's automatically going to have a power base. Um, there are people that are going to want to work with her or going to want to ask her about how the show works. And if it gets out to anybody that you're trying to target her, that's not a new idea. Everyone's going to think about it.

[00:44:45] But if you're the one voicing it now, all of a sudden when nobody else has a reason to target anybody, you're the reason. Uh, like that's an easy person to target early and it's happened over and over again in these kinds of spots. So that's a little bit of a concern for Jimmy, but otherwise I do, I do think he seems to have a good head on his shoulders. So, uh, I've got some hope. And can Rachel win? And also like, is there going to be another one? Like they're like, you know, they're just bringing one person back. Is there going to be a second person that they bring back?

[00:45:12] This is actually only the third time big brother has done one, just one person. Um, and, uh, both other times that person. Essentially led a cult in the house. Right. Which makes sense. I mean, you know, the, a, they like know the game. So they, they, they're familiar with just, I mean, just going back on reality TV, you just know so much more or just be like how to play, how to be, how to like, you know, what to expect, unexpected.

[00:45:38] Um, but then also obviously the, the, the, the returning player slash, you know, minor celebrity component, um, of course attracts people. You think it would be so obvious to vote these people out, just get rid of them now. Wow. But, um, you know, of course, like people just, that's not how our minds work. Um, yeah. So, but will they bring another person back or, or is it kind of going to be a one person? I think, I think we're locked in. It's going to be Rachel season this season. Wow. And she's going to dominate.

[00:46:08] Can she win? Like, cause that, that, does that returning player ever win? I mean, I saw lose when I watched season 14. Um, and I know that happened to, um, the other person who, Paul, uh, was a returning player. Yeah. Thank you, Paul. Yeah. I know that happened to Paul. Um, you know, is it, can the, does the returning ever win? So Rachel actually is, uh, the example of this.

[00:46:34] She came back after playing in season 12 to win 13 and she won against a new player. Um, but the caveat there is that, um, she had a bunch of fellow vets on the jury, uh, cause it was like six vets and something like eight or so new players. Uh, and, um, when Dan lost 14, he only had one vet on the jury. Um, when Paul lost 19, they had zero vets on there.

[00:47:03] They were the sole vet that season. Um, and, uh, now you could say theoretically that Jesse in season 11, who was also a soul that could have won season 11, uh, within a jury vote. Um, but he never even got close because of the coup de ta twist, which, uh, knocked him out of the game halfway through when, uh, the audience voted for a fan favorite to have the power to usurp the HOH, choose their own nominations at the last minute, and then vote that person. Oh boy.

[00:47:32] Um, so, uh, uh, so yeah, I, it'll be interesting. It'll be interesting to see. I think that, um, you know, odds are not super in her favor. Uh, I would say the key to a, in terms of a jury vote, the key to winning, cause she will almost certainly based on history, like make it to the end or close to the end. Yeah. Um, but, uh, but can she win a jury vote? Can she actually be taken to the final two? Those are two of the bigger things.

[00:47:59] And I would say it's super, super important for her to go in playing hard and taking out, like making sure she's taking exactly who she wants to the jury with her. Uh, I don't think she has room to like play around and like not care too much and then, you know, start really kicking in at the jury. She's really going to make sure that she brings a lot of like her followers into, uh, into the jury with her. But I feel like Rachel Riley will not have a problem with playing hard. Like what I know about Rachel is that she like goes hard.

[00:48:29] She is a gamer through and through. 1000%. It's the question would, is then like, does she make the correct decisions of who to bring and who to not bring? Uh, and, um, you know, I, I don't think that'll be too hard for her to be honest. I think that it's, it's a pretty simple formula, which is like the people that like me keep them around. Yeah. That's, that's a reasonable, that's reasonable. Sometimes people get really, they really overthink it sometimes. Let me tell you.

[00:48:57] In fact, one of the, one of the big things that big brother, uh, often sees is that, um, players think that it's like the right move to abandon their friends. They think that like, oh, you know what? Like everyone wants my friend gone and I'm the HOH. So if I don't, if I don't evict my friend, then everyone's going to be mad at me next week. So I'm going to just have to do their bidding. And the reality is that if you do their bidding, you've now just taken out your friend and you

[00:49:26] can't compete in the following HOH and the rest of the house just like has no reason to not target you now. Right. You have no leverage anymore. I mean, it's the same thing on survivor, right? It's just such a classic thing now where people are like, I have to take out my big ally. My number one ally in this game in order to like prove my resume that I'm a big player. Um, and of course it's always like, I think always, maybe not always, but the close to always a terrible, terrible, terrible game losing decision because you've taken out your biggest ally. You have no leverage. You have no, you know, you have no friends.

[00:49:56] The people who were your friends are mad at you. It just always blows up in people's faces. Well, yeah. And I think what makes it worse on big brother is that like on survivor, it would be like if you had won, if you used your say, uh, immunity idol, uh, offensively to take out your closest ally. Uh, like, it's like, you're not just like used up like a huge resource to do, to, to eat another resource that you had. Right. That's a great, that's great. That's a great comparison. Yeah. That's really interesting.

[00:50:25] The idea of like using, cause you, you get power that you can use strategically in a way that you just never do on survivor. Like you never have that kind of like offensive capability on survivor. That is really interesting. And that's, that's again, another huge part of it is that a lot of players don't use their power offensively enough in big brother. And those people often pay for it. Um, that, uh, they think, oh, well, I'm going to appease the house or I'm going to like do what my Alliance wants me to do.

[00:50:53] Um, instead of like having HOH is super powerful and you don't have that opportunity super often unless you're really lucky and you can win a bunch of comps. And if you waste that opportunity by doing somebody else's bidding, then that was your one chance. Uh, and I think people overestimate the blowback they get again, this idea of like, it will leave a few people mad at me. HOH has have solved that problem ages ago.

[00:51:21] You, you know, you can nominate somebody and then by the end of the week have made a deal with them. You've been working hard to make sure the votes are there for them to be safe. Um, like by sometimes you nominate people and by the end of the week, they're one of your closest allies because you, they are, you are their like most stalwart supporter because you know, they know you want the other person gone. Um, and, and because the game takes so long, it's a week.

[00:51:49] So you, you nominate them on Friday and the eviction is on Thursday. So the, you did them wrong almost a full week ago by the time they stick around. And in that time you've been supporting them the whole time. So their most recent memory of you is like, they've, they've really been looking up. They're still going to remember it most of the time, but like, uh, it's, it's actually not as bad as it seems most of the time. It is interesting how much time plays an element in all of these games. Cause you're right. Those betrayals sting in the moment.

[00:52:19] And then you can sort of do damage control for them. Mostly. I mean, a lot of people have complained about how survivor as it's now abbreviated timeframe, it's like a third of the length of big brother now. Um, but that creates this like little boiling cauldron where like these like spontaneous decision is followed by spontaneous decision. I do. I, it is appealing this idea of something where there's like just like a lot of time to work strategy. Um, I can, I can see that being like, like interesting to watch and interesting to play.

[00:52:47] The idea of playing big brother sounds like a nightmare. Like just like being in a house for seven. How long is it? 70 X day, 75 days, 90 days. Been as long as a hundred. I, I remember there was a guy. Yeah. At one point there was, it was a hundred days. That's insane. That's in one of those little bunk beds for a hundred days with like in a room full of people you hate. That was so terrible. Yeah. I mean, um, I'm sure, uh, similar things happen with survivor and survivor contestants also have to deal with like, uh, the physical element of being on the island.

[00:53:15] But like, certainly there are a lot of people that come out of the house, like with symptoms of PTSD, like, uh, just like have a really hard time. I'm adjusting back to regular life. Um, and, uh, and you know, it's like hard to trust people again. It's hard to like, not look at the world. Like it's a game. Cause you just spent a third of a year, uh, in this, in this specific environment, um, cut off from the outside world.

[00:53:44] Nobody understands your experience except for the other people that you did it with. And everybody online is telling you, you can't trust that person. You know what they said about you on day 47? Yeah. Like, um, and so it can be, it can be a lot for sure. Uh, and you know, kudos to people like Rachel who have endured it twice and now are about to a third time. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the, the, um, the element of there has been cameras like, and, and recorders

[00:54:10] there nonstop, no matter what you're doing, that has to be wearing too. Like, are people like losing it by the end? I mean, like just like mentally. So this is, this is what's interesting because, um, the live feeds, uh, and, and, uh, by the way, a lot of the stuff that I'm talking about stuff in the book, uh, and I talk about this in the book a lot, um, that like the live feeds, they, they take, they also give. Um, and so there are players who feel like, Hey, I went onto the show and the fact that I'm

[00:54:40] being filmed and broadcast 24 seven was like a safety blanket because I know how these shows work and I know what they can do to me in an edit. I know the kinds of things that can be withheld. Um, and so the fact that everything's being broadcast made me feel like, you know what? The truth is out there at least like there is. That's interesting. That is really interesting. Cause you are very aware of like how, like on survivor, you are very aware of how am I being edited? Like, or like you're scared of it.

[00:55:09] I mean, in my book, um, actually like, you know, one of this kick that my main character's big fears is like, oh my gosh, like I have to keep. Living up to this ideal because I can't let my edit, like my narrative, my editorial arc kind of like devolve to it's like worst, like worst version of itself. So I have to keep kind of having high moments keep like, cause I don't want my overall arc to be like lame and bad. And I'm like, you can hear the dumb music and the edit.

[00:55:35] Um, that's really, really interesting that, that you kind of have this like freedom from that. Yeah. And so obviously the, again, there's, it's, it can be a double-edged sword. Um, and there are certainly many people that would say, I didn't like it. Um, especially if you're somebody who's maybe prone to saying some wrong words here or there, uh, you're definitely not going to like it. Um, but, uh, but there are other reasons too. Like, yeah, it's, it can be a little oppressive.

[00:56:01] Um, there can be, you know, like screenshots of you and, you know, angles that you don't like and all kinds of stuff. Uh, but, um, you know, for the most part, uh, I think that especially again, given sort of the nature of these shows, uh, I really think that it's not only the thing that really makes the show stand out still after 25 years.

[00:56:26] Um, but it does also, uh, I think act as a layer of protection against, uh, or for, uh, many of the contestants who, you know, aren't saying slurs at least, um, you know, for, from production themselves, uh, because a lot of these shows can be, you know, pretty, pretty harmful, uh, for contestants.

[00:56:47] And, um, and so having a layer of defense against that, having like, uh, a level of like on the record, uh, truth that holds the producers accountable a little bit more, I think is generally a good thing. Um, even though, you know, there are pros and cons. Very interesting. Yeah. So Steven, you just, you just talked about, uh, how your main character is very, uh, sort of like conscious of the edit.

[00:57:17] Can you tell me a little bit more? Cause I'm, I'm very intrigued Steven about like, uh, you, so I, I wrote a book. It is nonfiction. It is a history of big brother, uh, talking about the story of it, how it developed. How it grew, um, how it changed my life, how it changed a lot of people's life, how it changed society in the world at large. It made, uh, John DeMalle, a billionaire. Um, you know, there are a lot of very interesting and fun things in here, but yours is fiction,

[00:57:46] but it's still in this realm. It's about essentially a fictionalized version of one of these shows. Yeah, exactly. It's a fictional show. So, you know, it is not a tell all. There is no behind the scenes dirt for survivor, but you know, what I have tried to capture is like what it, like, like I was saying, like what it feels like to be on reality TV, you know? And the, my, my main character, I have two main characters.

[00:58:10] One is this contestant who won his first season of a, of a jungle based reality show. Now he's kind of going on a new show and he's got this sort of desperate need to live up to the person he once was. He's both kind of looking for, I mean, the book is called escape. Um, and the title of the fictional show is escape, but this guy is kind of looking for an escape from his normal life, um, to kind of like into this sort of fantasy world of being

[00:58:39] a TV character, you know, for all intents and purposes, but because it's also real life, you know, he's just kind of like constantly struggling to live up to what he thinks his, he should be in and what his ideal should be all the while with this like very, you know, present realization that it is a show. He could be edited to be anything. And he kind of has to keep on having these like hero moments and to, to like stay, you know, as what he imagines the hero is, you know?

[00:59:07] And so he's constantly faced with these like moral decisions where it's like, this is better for my game, but I know I'll like look better to the audience at home. And, you know, if I do this other thing, um, and so like, I tried to like capture, you know, that feeling of being on a show where you're constantly just like a thousand little things are running through your mind. There's like the strategic things. There's a, like, how am I going to be perceived things? There's like, what am I feeling things?

[00:59:34] And, you know, obviously of course he's with other contestants and relationships start to develop love blooms. Um, you know, there's so, so all of that is, is pressing in on, on him. And meanwhile, my other main character is a producer who herself, you know, is trying to think about what is the story I'm telling here? Because one thing I've known, knowing these producers is they're all expert storytellers, you know, they're writers, you know, they are crafting that in their way. Um, also while recognizing like, Hey, these are real people.

[01:00:03] I have to like, let, like allow their humanity to like be itself. But I also am kind of like trying to like create a story that makes sense, um, here. And, and I think like that conflict between those two forces is really interesting. Um, but yeah, I mean, and then of course I said it in the jungle and this like part, it's got thriller components. So you can sort of like see everything kind of like spiraling into insanity. Um, but, but, uh, yeah, I mean, it was a grueling process to write, but I'm like pretty happy with the result.

[01:00:31] Like, how do you feel like you, you know, love this show so much. You have devoted so much of your life to it. Like, and now here you're trying to like encapsulate it all. Like, how do you feel like, how did you feel about the process and how do you feel, you know, about the result? Uh, it was super interesting. Um, I talked about this when I announced it, uh, and I'm sure it's, it's similar for you, but like, I, I, I always wanted to be a writer. I always like really loved the idea of it.

[01:01:01] And I loved the process of it. I had written a few things when I was a kid that I was really proud of. Um, and, uh, and then, you know, I got into podcasting and I was like, oh, this is what I'm doing, I guess. Um, and, um, and so, you know, the opportunity came, came up, uh, and I, I really, you know, I, I would love to write fiction too. You know, hopefully if this book does well enough, I can write all kinds of things.

[01:01:26] But, um, you know, the first thing that came to me, it was of course like big brother. Like I just knew that I had a book about this show in me. Um, and it is very much like, you know, uh, I I've grown up watching this show. It's been with me since I was eight years old and, um, and it, it is grown with me. Uh, it has changed me.

[01:01:56] I've, I feel like to some degree, uh, you know, been part of, uh, changing it, uh, along with every other, uh, member of the audience. Um, because I think it is, uh, something that, that, um, that changes with the audience and reflects the audience and society as a whole. Um, and I've just, I've learned so much from watching it, just watching people on the feeds, watching the ways that, uh, that people wield power in the house, watching the, the, the

[01:02:22] ways that things shift in the game and the ways that small changes from above, like the competitions can completely alter the way that not only the game plays out, but how people are viewed in the game and how they're treated in the game. Um, and the ways in which you can expand that to society and the, the, you know, how small changes and rules change what the norm is. And then the norm dictates how we feel about people sometimes.

[01:02:49] Uh, and that's, that all exists in this distilled version, uh, on this show. Um, and, uh, and, and like I talked about, like it's, it is so much more visible on here, uh, for big brother because of the live feeds, because everything is so much more transparent. Uh, you get to see these things without kind of like the shine of storytelling on it, uh, that other shows have in, in their edits. Um, and so it's just fascinating.

[01:03:18] Uh, I, I was able to do a bunch of research to look up, you know, some of the ways that the show was started. This also, I would say not really like a tell all by any means. This is no, like a, there's not like gossip about like, uh, Oh, can you believe the producers did this? Uh, it is much more. So I think my version of telling this show's story, um, and, uh, and trying to make it as compelling as possible, um, analyzing it in the way that I can and, um, and hopefully

[01:03:46] making something that is, uh, really enjoyable to read and really hopefully meaningful to some degree to read. Yeah, it's, uh, it's been, it's been fun. I've, I really enjoyed the process and I'm, I'm super nervous and also excited for people to read it. I mean, I think what unites, like, I think like what you're describing of that interest in like the way people treat each other and how like the norms of the game affect that,

[01:04:13] like, that is also like, to me, the heart of what I find interesting about these shows and what is like the heart of my book as well. Um, which is, you know, just like you're on this ridiculous kind of like cultural product, you know, this reality show, um, and that like most of the world thinks is like this like silly thing, you know, but you know, it's real people out there. They're like treating each other in real ways that affect their real lives and all the while kind of saying, well, it's a game. And of course I did this. It's just the game, you know?

[01:04:43] And like, there's that tension between, you know, how do you, how much you let the game govern, like how you treat someone, um, as a, as a person versus like how much you default to, you know, like they're a person and I have to like treat them with kindness and humanity. I mean, I had this conversation with Emily Flippen, um, from survivor. We went to the blood on the clock tower convention and we were talking about like, you know, do you feel bad when you vote someone out, you know, of survivor? And she was like, no, it's a game.

[01:05:11] I absolutely don't feel bad. Like cut the, you know, cut their necks. And I was like, no, of course you feel bad. Like you're a human doing something like, you know, really like that's going to really hurt this other human, you know, even if it's a game. So I don't know. I mean, it's, it's, it's an interesting discussion about how, like where, you know, where that all falls. And I do think like, maybe like that, like that humanity of it does unite, you know, both, both the fictional non-fictional aspects. Yeah.

[01:05:37] And, and, you know, I really, I read a lot and I really enjoy like fantasy sci-fi a lot. I love, you know, I love some things like squid game, like death games. And part of the reason why I like all of these sort of like fantastical things is that I love reading well-written ones where I'm able to like place myself in the character's head and just see like, what does a person that feels real because they're well-written, how do they

[01:06:06] react to these ridiculous scenarios and circumstances? And, and I think that like, that's kind of what reality TV is oftentimes. And so I like, to me, the idea of your book is, is super interesting. And I think that like, you know, you do have things like squid game, but I often feel that those are focused on either like a larger message or the spectacle of what's happening

[01:06:32] rather than like the real people facing it, which is actually not a dick on squid game. Cause I love squid game. Yeah. Many of the other versions of it. Right. The bad versions. Yeah. I mean, you know, squid game was like so good at grounding it and like that human need and like, just like, like family and like monetary concerns. I mean, I actually like, you know, I went to an MFA program, you know, like sort of halfway through writing, through writing this book, because I was like, I didn't think my draft was good enough. And I wanted to get better as a writer to kind of like achieve what I wanted out of a book.

[01:07:03] And like multiple teachers of mine were like, you need to like make this high concept, like make the reality show be like, you know, what if it's like, I mean, honestly, some of the ideas were offensive, but they were all very like, like super high concept stuff. And like, I wanted it to be low concept. I felt like, you know, anyone can kind of like write the high concept version. I mean, not anyone, but like, you know, can, can I sort of like my concept, like really cerebral version of like, what if it was a, you know, a reality show where half of the people acted like they were aliens and like half of the people acted like they, you know,

[01:07:32] and, you know, but what I find really interesting is like the low, you know, the concept of like the, the, the show that's on, you know, the, like the, the streaming network that nobody's ever heard of, you know, and it's like this cheap production. And yet the people there, like they're living like this huge moment in their lives. Like to me, that's kind of cool and interesting. And also what I felt like I could do in a way that nobody else could, you know, because I have that experience where I was like, you know, you know, anyone can be like, and it's

[01:08:01] like 17 people trapped in a house on a, on Mars, you know, like, sure. Like it's, it may be interesting, but like, and it wouldn't channel anything that I could bring to it uniquely. Yeah. I mean, I've, I've been disappointed in any kind of fictionalized version of a social strategy game because I feel like it's, I would say I haven't ever really read a fictionalized social strategy maneuver that feels real or well thought out.

[01:08:29] Like, like anybody who's like a mastermind character, uh, in any of these things, they usually just kind of magic some stuff, you know? Exactly. Um, and, and like, I am, I am very hungry to read about like, uh, a, any kind of game like this that actually focuses in the cares about the details of like how things function, um, and how they actually operate in real life.

[01:08:54] Like in watching squid game again, not to, I guess I love squid game, but like some of the weaker parts of squid game I felt were like, Oh, well this had to happen in order for this to happen. And, and, you know, this person convinced this person by doing that. And it's like, you know, I watched these shows, like it would have probably played out a little differently if they were really trying to like make these alliances or like betray this, you know? Uh, and so, yeah, I mean, it's hard though too, because like, you're thinking like what, how much, you know, that was one of the big challenges I had is like, how much do you

[01:09:21] balance like the game, the mechanics of the game with like the human drama. And then of course, just like the plot is challenging. I don't know. I, I, you know, I settled on something that I think is, is, is right. But you know, I'm sure, I'm sure everyone reading it was like, you should have had more game, you know, or like there wasn't enough. Yeah. I mean, I, I wouldn't say it's like so much, like let's describe all the details of how it happens as much as like, does it feel authentically true? Yeah. Like, does this feel like the way that it should play out given how, what I know about these characters?

[01:09:50] Um, and, uh, and I feel like there's something really interesting about these games is why we watch these shows. And, um, and I think that maybe, maybe there aren't enough, uh, people who are avid viewers of these shows that are also writers. It's like that they could really, uh, show these things in authentic ways. Well, one of the hardest things for me was, you know, I like tried for years to like write like a good, like an interesting challenge sequence. Like, you know, cause like these games have challenges, physical challenges.

[01:10:20] And like, it was always so boring. It's like, they're doing this dumb thing and they're going to win this silly reward. Like the stakes felt very small. Um, like how do you make a challenge? You know, it's like, how could you write a challenge in a way that feels like it's interesting for, for the plot, for the characters, you know, on the page. Cause it's not really happening, you know, it is fictional. Um, and then I had a friend who was like, no, what's interesting about this from a psychological perspective is like the silliness of the challenge. It is like how much it matters.

[01:10:47] You know, it's like your characters care so much about like the silly, whatever basketball challenge or like building the bridge across the, the, the, the, the cardboard bridge across the lava, you know, and, and then hearing Julie's voice, you know, it matters so much to these people. And like that level of it, like, you know, we're gods, you know, we're Titans competing in on the greatest season of reality ever. As we're like, you know, assembling these cardboard pieces is just like, there's like a lot of like building a bridge over lava. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:11:17] Yeah. And like, yeah, but this is like, I'm going, I'm giving it my all as a human. As I like do this absurd thing on this like soundstage in Los Angeles is very like funny. I think. Yeah. Um, well, Steven, I'm very excited to read your book. Uh, I mean, you've really like over the course of this hour, I've really like sold me on big brother. I, I'm, I'm, I'm very excited to learn more about it just like structurally and like the evolution of the game and the strategy. So I'm, I'm, I'm hyped, Aaron.

[01:11:47] Thank you. Yeah. I mean, in the thing too, I did write the book, uh, to be completely approachable for anybody who knows nothing about the show. Um, and, and hopefully in a way that is still like, it's not going to feel repetitive or like annoying. If you know the show, I think that it's going to be hopefully like even more rewarding potentially, but, um, but it's definitely like, I make sure everything I'm talking about is like explained in a way that you can hopefully follow it. That was my goal.

[01:12:14] Uh, I have had people read it who don't know the show and they've, they've really enjoyed it. So, um, that's, that's cool. That must've been challenging to make them both approachable for like the average reader and for the super fan who knows everything about the show. I think I will know how truly challenging it was depending on if it actually worked. Because I found it to be, cause here's the thing. I felt like I'm writing this from the perspective of somebody who knows all of these things.

[01:12:42] And so I'm telling the story in a way that's compelling to me. Right. And therefore hopefully compelling to anybody who also knows these things. Like I'm writing this and I'm like, I'm getting goosebumps talking about casers saying, you know, uh, you sealed your partner's fate. Um, and so, uh, from my perspective, it's, it's working. And then at the same time, making sure to include all of the bits. Cause like, it's, it's a little bit like, you know, when people watch my live feed updates, many times they do know what happened. They just want to see it put together in a compelling narrative.

[01:13:11] Um, and so that's kind of the idea. It's like, you've seen this before, but have you, have you experienced it in a, in the way that I'm telling it? Uh, where like, there's almost sometimes a bit of fun in like, Ooh, I know what's coming, but the way it's written is like, I don't know what's coming. And therefore I have a little bit of a thrill of like, Ooh, I can't wait for case or to say the line. Um, and so, uh, that's, that's my hope, uh, for those moments.

[01:13:40] Um, but, but hopefully also there'll be plenty of stuff that, uh, that you either don't know about, or is, you know, much more like higher level analytical or, um, sort of, uh, just other, other interesting, compelling narratives. Um, but, uh, yeah. So Steven, I've, I've convinced you you're, you're, you're down to continue to watch big brother. I'll watch more episodes. I'll give it another, I'm, I can't wait to find out how they work, how they do the saboteur thing. So I'll definitely watch one more episode. Is it going to be solved next episode? Am I going to know who the saboteur is?

[01:14:10] I would assume so. I think that's why they're hiding the live feeds is because they don't want the sab, the, uh, accomplice to be revealed. Oh, sorry. The accomplice. Yeah. I I'll, I'll go. I mean, I'll, I'll do episode by episode is if you can keep pulling me in big brother, I'll, I'll let myself be pulled. Well, here's, here's, here's what I'll pitch to you. Uh, maybe try out some live feed updates. Uh, if, if, uh, if, if, if that's, I don't know, maybe, maybe that's more appealing to you. Maybe it's less appealing. Or maybe check out like the round tables.

[01:14:39] Like that's, that's generally, you can skip the player ratings, but like when we talk about like the overall summary of what's been happening on the feeds, um, you know, maybe that can be compelling, but I don't know. Maybe we'll, we'll see. You can, uh, again, choose your own adventure. Yeah. Um, well, before we get off, I should say, if you're interested in all my book, you should buy it. You can buy it at stephenfishback.com or escapefishback.com. That's F I S H B A C H.

[01:15:05] Um, but if you misspell it, I basically like I've squatted on basically every, every misspelling of my name. So it's okay. I'm sure we'll have links in the description as well to, uh, to both. Um, yeah, of course, Taryn armstrong.com for, uh, for my book. Um, uh, you've mentioned this, I've mentioned this pre-orders are, are everything. Uh, really? I, I, I truly like, it's like, I did not know that before being on this side of it. I would like occasionally pre-order someone's books, but like, I almost, you know, I mean,

[01:15:33] it matters like, like twice as much as a normal, as a normal order of your book. Yeah. Like for, for many reasons, like, uh, it's obviously like the more orders there are, the more interest there is, the more resources are going to be poured into it. Also like they build up and they all kind of get like spent on the publish date. So it's like, Oh, I sold this many copies in a single day. Therefore I'm on this amount of lists, you know, like, uh, so. So yeah, all kinds of, uh, good things for the pre-order.

[01:16:02] You can get a signed copy for, for, uh, of my book. Uh, I partnered with a local bookstore, um, that I will be, uh, signing at this point. Uh, thank you all so much. I'm going to be signing quite a lot of books at the bookstore. Uh, when we ship those out. Um, but, uh, yeah, this is fun. I'm sure we'll, uh, we'll continue to talk over the summer. Some people might be interested to hear like more about the writing process and like what it's like to, I, I found it super interesting to be on this side of it.

[01:16:32] Uh, so, uh, I'm sure we can have some conversations about that in the future as well. Yeah, that'd be really fun. I would love to do that. Yeah. All right. Well, uh, anything else to plug Steven? I think, I mean, that's it. I mean, you know, blood on the clock tower. We got a new episode of survivors playing blood on the clock tower up. I mean, new ish. Uh, I do think people who like strategy games, if you haven't watched any, you know, this is, this is a good one. Um, but you can find it on the R-Hap, uh, you know, Rob has a podcast video, video stream.

[01:16:58] Blood on the clock tower is a game that is like the, like if big brother kind of stumbled into a really cool formula, that's pretty flawed. Uh, blood on the clock tower is like a really tight, well-designed, like they've thought of everything kind of game. Yeah. It's so intricate and like so addictive. I love playing it more than anything. I mean, parenting is my number one. And then like right behind it is playing blood on the clock tower.

[01:17:26] It was, I mean, the key there is to get the, the children to play. That's the dream. Well, so my oldest is four and a half and my youngest is one and a half. So she can't speak. So it would be challenge. You know, she's just learning words. I mean, um, yeah. Sucks for her, huh? Yeah. He's going to get voted out first. Um, but I do as I'm, I'm definitely working on the older. I want to slowly get her into the, uh, into the games. Yeah. Uh, all right. Well, thank you all for joining us. Hopefully you enjoyed this.

[01:17:52] I thought it was a fun little experimental bonus, uh, podcast here. Well, we have nothing else to talk about waiting for the live feeds to start. Um, of course we'll have more coming your way. Sunday night, uh, will be our accomplice revealing episode, hopefully. Um, and then, uh, then the first live feed update of the season, Monday morning, we'll talk about how what's going on. This is going to be, we're going to be have to catch up quite a lot, uh, for, for all of the things that are going on, on the live feeds to tune in for all of that.

[01:18:21] You can of course find all the other stuff I'm doing on YouTube and Twitch, uh, all over the place. And, um, that's what we got. Thank you so much for joining us and I will see all of you next time. Thank you.